Friday, June 5, 2015

What if...He intervenes

The following post is for mature audiences only. If you are one of my younger readers, please defer to your parent's wisdom before you continue.

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. - Ephesians 5:22-24

How could Paul say the word "everything" in this verse? What if a husband tells a wife to do something sinful? 

Looking at the account of Abraham and his son Isaac, we see demonstrated a blind faith, if you will, in obeying a command that would seem to be unbearable. It is quite apropos then, when I speak of taking Paul's writing in Ephesians literally, I'm most often asked the question: "What if your husband tells you to abort your baby?" It's an extreme example and meant to be a test or a stumbling block to prove that something else needs to be added to Paul's writing. That it is obvious he left something out that wives should just know. That the undeniable and obvious meaning of the word "everything" is: "everything except _____." The blank then needs to be discerned by the wife.

Abraham’s faith is a fascinating example for wives who might find themselves in a situation where they must choose to obey or rebel. It is written that God was testing Abraham and in knowing his obedience said to him:  
“Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
As wives we may find ourselves in a situation where we must rely on faith to obey what might otherwise be seen as a request that is impossible to obey. It is a spiritual battle to be sure. It is scary and heart wrenching. Intense prayer is the only thing that helps stave off the fear. And if there were anyway I could bottle up the end result and let women experience a whiff of it I would. But it is something she must decide for herself by faith.

Here's Abraham's end result:
15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 
A husband doesn’t quite have all of that to give when his wife has displayed the ultimate loyalty and obedience to his request. But what he does do is everything a woman needs to KNOW she chose the right path and she will hit her knees and thank God that he allowed for her to see the truth – there needn’t be an exception to what Paul wrote in Ephesians. Everything does mean everything and God is really that big.

I received an email yesterday from a woman who has candidly told her experience of submitting in everything. She has graciously allowed me to share this experience with you:  
I know that there is quite a bit of controversy, [denial is a better word] about whether wives should obey their husbands in everything. In light of this, I would like to submit an account of the last few months in order to illustrate, first hand, that our God is bigger and infinitely more wise than wives are, and He did, in fact, mean what He said when He commanded wives to obey our husbands in everything.

To start out, a few months ago, I confessed to my husband that the Mila Kunis & Natalie Portman love scene in the Oscar winning movie Black Swan, had stirred up female fantasies in my mind and dreams. My husband became ecstatic about this and from then on, we had a long running 'lesbian fantasy' that we often joked about.

Well, after a while, and after he directly asked me if I honestly was curious enough to try this and I answered  yes, he decided that we should set something up. Once it shifted toward a future reality and no longer a fantasy, I was flooded with emotions and blame. I spent about 6 weeks disrespecting, crying, threatening to leave, apologizing, begging, and starting over again with the disrespecting. 

We made a few Craigslist personal ads, some including pictures of my genitalia, or body shots not including my face. Then, i would skim through the other ads and see trannies soliciting several men for group sex with vulgar invites in the subject line. When I started to feel the pain of the reality that I was rightfully grouped alongside these evil, reprobate fags, I started using offensively manipulative tactics in order to rationalize my own sin and make my husband feel as bad as I did, like telling him that if he doesn't love me enough to protect me from immorality just because it would be enjoyable for him to watch, then I guessed I would have to protect myself from it. Then I would take down the pictures, or entire ads, only to put them back up after we would come to some agreement where I would chose the lady, she can't be sexier than me of course, before he would even read the ad and I would decide 100% of the details i.e. if we would meet her at a hotel, have drinks first, etc.

During all these months, I was purposely ignoring God. No prayer, no Bible reading, no entertaining my conscience. Just suppression, suppression, suppression. After a while, I realized that I could only go on ignoring God for so long and all of my sexual fantasies or my obsession with increasing my husband's desire for me were not worth ignoring God anymore. I finally came to Him.

I wrote down all of the disgusting things I wanted to repent of: self obsession, disrespect and manipulation of my husband, the lesbian fantasies, the addiction to moderating my husband's exposure to women that I deemed more attractive than myself and the indignation that ensued when I could not stop a situation from happening, t.v., phone or real life where he seen an attractive woman, the will full determination to ignore God, the constant frustrations that I took out on my husband through extreme personality shifts from crazy, psycho wife to sweet, happy wife and the ignoring of our kids that they endured during the hours and hours that I spent recreating new personal ads, renewing them, taking photos, arguing with my husband and other things.

I honestly and finally gave it to God. I prayed a prayer to save my life and bring me back above water. I starting reading Hebrews. I also happened to read Dalrock's most recent M-I-L post where the comments highlighted a debate between you and a few other women about obeying your husband unto sin or not. This was yesterday.

I have always believed that the passage was written as is for a reason and I have been committed to obeying my husband no matter what command he gives me. So, when my husband got home last night, I repented to him for my emotional highs and lows and for all of the offenses that I committed against him. I told him the truth- that yes, I do have a fantasy that involves me with a woman but that it doesn't mean I have to make it a reality. I asked him if he wants us to continue with this and if he has considered if it is a sin or not with possible repercussions. He answered that yes, he wants us to continue and that he does not believe it is sinful because we, as a married couple, are choosing to do it together and that if I did it alone, without him present, it would be a sin.

At this point, I had wondered about why a woman who wants a life of promiscuity but wants it to be excused, wouldn't marry an unbeliever who would ask of her sinful  requests that she already knows she would enjoy but she would be blameless because she is obeying her husband, who will be accountable to God for the things he has asked of her. I felt immense guilt because I was going to be able to do something sinful that I would enjoy and yet my husband will be at fault and not me. I did not share this with him, just thought these things.

Anyways, we renewed another posting and answered a few emails, one of which was a couple saying that they would be down tonight to come over and let us wives get together while they watched. This was a no for my husband because he didn't want another man to see it and so we never answered them and we went into the bedroom to bed. The urgency that I felt when they responded before my husband said no, knowing that I might be doing this very thing in a few hours prompted me to say to my husband "I suppose if this is actually going to happen in the very near future, I better change our sheets." I then divulged to him that I had an internal conflict over this being done on our bed as opposed to a couch or something because of the Hebrew's verse: let the marriage bed be undefiled. I then said that I know it is just a euphemism and that it is in fact the marriage that is to remain undefiled and I understand that the bed means nothing more than the couch. I said out loud, "but you said that we are okay because this is something we are doing together."

Suddenly, my husbands countenance fell. He stopped talking and started thinking. I asked him what he was thinking about and he said "you know what I'm thinking about." I waited a few minutes and said "here, give me a kiss goodnight in case you're not done thinking before we both fall asleep." He answered "I'm not gonna fall asleep." I waited a few more minutes. Then I said "I don't mean to prod but can you tell me the gist of what you're thinking?" He answered "That verse will not leave my head. I can't get passed it."

At that moment I knew it was over. I felt a rush of relief and I just started silently  praising and thanking God. I walked with my husband, both of us drenched in sin, I did not freak out once I had addressed my convictions of this being immoral, I simply, in passing made a quick statement/joke about washing the bed sheets and it was over. My husband protected me, himself and our marriage from defilement and now he knows that I was with him.

God found a way to intervene only once I gave it to Him and still honored Him through obedience to my husband. Today is a new day for both of us. Things are different and fresh. The sun is shining brighter and our cuddles last night were more meaningful. We are united once again. Praise be to God!

Had I refused and continued to make my husband feel crappy for allowing/asking me to be with a woman, he nor I would have ever felt the real unity that we feel now. Whether I would have chickened out or put the brakes on, I may never know. I would like to think that I was at peace enough to follow through, but I don't deserve that much credit.

I hope you enjoyed my story and that it will serve as a piece of proof that there is light at the end of the tunnel, even if the tunnel is in the form of a sinful request that a wife must obey.


  1. Powerful scenario.

    I wonder how many men can't hear God over their wife's blabbering.

  2. NO!! This is absolutely wrong!! If a husband asks something that is clearly immoral and clearly a sin against nature we are not to obey!!! We are supposed to obey the state also, but we clearly know that if the state commands us to sin that we are to refuse. Please do not be Deceived!!!

    1. You have no Biblical support for what you have said and are deceived yourself. So much so you can not see how important marriage is to God that He will hold us in His protection which is so much more powerful than your fear and exclamations.

  3. I was rethinking this post last night. I started doing the math on this and I see it breaking down differently.

    Wife has immoral sexual fantasy
    Tells husband about it
    They jointly fantasize about doing it
    They jointly check into making it happen
    Wife's insecurity about her attractiveness causes her to get cold feet
    Husband is still into doing it
    All his damn fault for not being more of a spiritual leader in his home.

    I agree that God is going to hold the man responsible for his marriage and home. I'm not addressing that point. What could / should he done differently that would have been acceptable to the female churharian?

    1. Not allow his wife to watch R rated movies?
    2. Divorced her when she told him about her fantasy for being a bi-curious whore?
    3. Confine her to the home and only allow her to go out when accompanied by himself and covered in a hijab?
    4. Take her out of the city and stone her to death?

    I think most guys if offered this kind of fantasy sexual encounter by their wife would be tempted to do it. If the wife brought it up, did the research/advertising to find another women to participate and then after months of letting her husband think it was going to happen started to talk about backing out, the man might be a little frustrated. Common already, the sexual anticipation on this scenario for a guy is greater than "honey I shaved my legs and the kids are at grandma's tonight".

    Was this situation sinful? Of course. Was it all his fault or was he some how the one leading them down the wrong path? SHE OFFERED! She brought the apple. He wanted a bite. She started rethinking it and he still wanted a bite. Then she tried to spiritualize things, not because of a deeply held faith in God, but because she was looking for an out because of her insecurity about her looks.

    Eventually God was able to get through and work on the husband's heart. They didn't sin as fully as they were planning. Had the wife obeyed God's standards on sex from the start there wouldn't be any debate about "obeying a higher standard than her husband" in the end.

  4. What could / should he done differently that would have been acceptable to the female churharian?

    Yes, your list does seem to mirror what women are informed they should do in response to when husbands are tempted though #4 is frivorce and rape him of all of his money.

    I think most guys if offered this kind of fantasy sexual encounter by their wife would be tempted to do it.

    Certainly! Though everything that followed the fantasy was a slippery slope down Satan's cauldron, what she did do was express something honestly to her husband. Though he was tempted himself and was not able to wash her in the Word immediately, a new level of intimacy has definitely been developed in this marriage.

    The insecurity she had within her is a form of coveting. It is sin. This exposed it. I love what Sy had to say (video in my previous post) "Either you tell on your sin or it will tell on you."

    When women can openly confront their sins of coveting and repent of them they'll experience a calm that is hard to describe. I remember it in my own life. I could never understand how women could be so at peace with knowing that their husbands are physically attracted to other women. I was very jealous and insecure (covetous). That crap can eat a woman alive. It stresses the adrenal system with the constant fight or flight rush and leads to poor health. It is most often suppressed with SSRI's now which sadly have their own myriad of health risks. I remember a point in my life that I'd rather "not feel" anymore than to keep feeling the way I was and was tempted to get on those drugs. God has a much healthier offering for this.

    1. While every guy I know is potentially attracted to other females, it doesn't work the same way for men as women. We are attracted by the visual but that doesn't mean its an overwhelming attraction. A well sexed male can see lots of other women who are more attractive than his wife and still be happy with what he has at home.

      When scripture tells us to "let her breasts satisfy you always" its not a suggestion, or even something particularly difficult to do. Guys who get all they could want from their wife, and make an effort to guard their eyes and heart, have no problem enjoying their wife for life.

      BUT if we get away form that its easy to let our eyes and mind roam and if the mind is roaming its easier for the rest of us to follow. I think that's what happened in your scenario.

  5. There is no Scriptural support for absolute submission from either wife to husband or subject to king. This is what happens when you use one verse instead of looking at the rest of the Bible. Paul also says we're to submit to our rulers (Romans 13:1-7), and yet in Exodus the midwives directly disobeyed the Pharaoh:

    "The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live." Exodus 1:17-19.

    And God rewarded them for it. Absolute submission to authority is not commanded by Scripture, but general obedience to authority, even in matters not morally clear, is expected (Abraham telling Sarah to say she was his sister would fall under this). You're also aware of the verse Acts 5:29 where Peter is told by his authorities to not preach the Gospel and Peter replies, "It is better to obey God than Man" and continues to preach. Romans 13:1-2 says that whoever rebels against the authorities disobeys God, yet here we have instances of God directly blessing people who did just that. It is clear from Scripture that absolute submission to the point of sinning is not mandated by God.

    1. With the exception of Abraham and Sarah, your examples are not examples of "the two shall be one flesh" covenant with God which is marriage to which very special and specific instruction was given.

  6. David-093,
    I do not intend to get into a biblical debate with you so I will not continue down that road, my apologies. Instead, if you would, and any others reading who believe the woman in this story should not have "submitted in everything," please provide the example of what you believe she should have done differently at the point in which her husband still wanted to go through with the sinful act.

    How should she have relayed to her husband her noncompliance to what he told her he wanted to do? Do you believe that should she have done what you would suggest, the outcome would have been the same?

    Also, can you see, from the outcome that did happen, the good that came of her faith to submit in everything?

  7. "I do not intend to get into a biblical debate with you so I will not continue down that road, my apologies. Instead, if you would, and any others reading who believe the woman in this story should not have "submitted in everything," please provide the example of what you believe she should have done differently at the point in which her husband still wanted to go through with the sinful act. How should she have relayed to her husband her noncompliance to what he told her he wanted to do? Do you believe that should she have done what you would suggest, the outcome would have been the same?"

    No worries. She should have said, “Forgive me, but I can't do that. It's a sin and goes against the Word of God” in as respectfully a manner as possible. Perhaps, I don't know her husband from Adam, but whether or not the outcome is the same is irrelevant: you cannot sin that good may come of it.

    Also, can you see, from the outcome that did happen, the good that came of her faith to submit in everything?

    Yes, it was a positive outcome, and God can bring good from the bad, but this situation strikes me more as tempting the Lord, as in, you expect Him to save you from a situation that could be avoided by refusing to go into it. God does that, from time to time, but He also saves those who stand up to an illegitimate command from a legitimate authority (Pharoah, Xerxes, the Pharisees).

  8. you cannot sin that good may come of it

    Correct my misunderstanding here: Do you believe he sought to sin so good would come of it? Testing his wife's obedience? Or do you see that he might not have been obeying the Word due to not knowing it with clarity - which was revealed to him after she respectfully voiced the concern she was having?

    Do you believe that she was in sin by going along with the plan? ie. do you believe her obedience to her husband in this instance was sin?

  9. No, I think he simply saw the possibility for engaging in something that enticed him, so he decided to go ahead and try it. No, he wasn't testing her, he was actively attempting to engage in sinful behavior. He probably did not know it was a sin (again, I don't know this guy so the extent of his faith is something I can only guess at), but it sounds to me like even if he did it would not have mattered; what got him to stop was one specific verse that stuck out to him, which is probably a combination of his wife voicing her concern and God speaking to his conscience.

    It risks confusing the issue by saying her obedience to her husband her was the sin. The sin was lust, her obeying her husband had little to do with it as she already wanted to do it in the first place. Had she voiced her concern, her husband ignored it and commanded her to perform the sin, and she went a long with it, then it would be an instance of obeying a sinful command.

    In either case, the greater sin belongs to the husband because he should not have commanded her to sin in the first place.

    1. I've got another question for you. Imagine a scenario where you have told your wife to do something and she in the most respectful manner she could said to you, "forgive me, I believe doing that would be sinful, is there something else I could do to please you?" (recognizing, please, that this is not at all the way women actually express their noncompliance in the real world) - as a man how do you believe you would receive it? And what if it is something that you believe is not sinful (either you are blind to it being sinful, or you are not a believer, or are in rebellion yourself). How would this, even respectful and kind, admonishment be received? Also, if you would acquiesce, perhaps apologize, tell her she's right, etc. how do you think that would effect her opinion of you, attraction to you, or security in your decision making from then on, knowing what you know of the nature of women?

  10. I very much value respect and kindness so if she says she can't do it, because she believes/its a sin, in a respectful, non-argumentative manner, I would be much more open to her side than I would be if she was rude and condescending about it. If it's something sinful (and I can't imagine commanding her to do something sinful), I would expect her to show me how it is disobeying God's Word and to ask me to reconsider. I'm not attempting to boast here, but I'm usually a very reasonable person when it comes to arguments made in good-faith, so it would probably be received well by me, even though I'd be surprised since I almost certainly know the Bible better than her. If she merely believes its sinful when it's not, I would point out to her that it's not and expect her compliance. If it's not a sin and she simply doesn't want to do it because she's in rebellion, then that changes the situation entirely, in which case she would find life at home significantly less to her liking.

    Regarding her opinion of me, it depends. Knowing the nature of women, I'm not expecting brilliance on the level of a Talmudic scholar, but I do expect some level of moral wisdom if she's submiting to me in obedience to God and capable of pointing out to me a sin that I missed. I wouldn't grovel, I would probably simply say, “I see, you're right, that is a sin, I apologize. What's for dinner?” There's no need to make a production out of it, and a man with alpha characteristics (or one that she is attracted to) can afford a display of “weakness” every now and then without it negatively impacting him.

    1. Thank you for your response, David.

      I would point out to her that it's not and expect her compliance.

      From this I gather that you are of the belief that you are the final arbiter, the one in authority and head of your home. With this, we are on the very same page.

  11. No problem. Yes I believe that. Dont get me wrong, I think a wifes default position towards her husband should be trust and obedience without fear that its a sin. The overwhelming majority of the time its a legitimate command and where theres doubt she should err on the side of obedience, but the Bible also tells us to be wise and that includes knowing the rare occasion to disobey ones present authority when its clearly a sin.

  12. In the examples provided by SarahsDaughter (Abraham and Sarah, the woman in the story), God intervened and made a way so that the woman did not sin. It appears from the Abraham/Sarah stories that wives would be held innocent of sin if husband ordered it and it actually happened.

    One thing I note concerning submission to authority is that God ordered Abraham to murder his own son - which would appear to be a violation of God's command not to murder. Abraham submitted to God and was about to go through with obedience when God intervened and provided an alternative.

    That's exactly what happened with Abraham/Sarah and the woman who wrote in.

    It would appear that those under authority are to trust in God to protect them from illegal/sinful orders.


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