Friday, January 8, 2016

Does he qualify to be the head?

In response to this snippet of a comment made at Dalrock's:
In order to be truly head of his family, a husband must himself be subjugate himself to Jesus Christ.
Commentator JDG asks the obvious question:
 But who decides when a husband is subjugated to Jesus Christ?
Let's pretend for a moment that the first comment doesn't directly contradict what is clearly stated in 1 Peter 3 and consider a way in which a wife might determine if her husband is subjugated to Jesus Christ.

What are some things we might look for in a man that would give us a clear indication?

Would he talk about Jesus?

Multimillionaire preachers Kenneth Copeland and Jesse Duplantis sure do. However, in addition to talking about Jesus they do say a number of peculiar things:
 "The world is in such a shape that we can't get there without this. We've got to have this [private jet]," Copeland said. "That's why we're on that [private] airplane. We can talk to God."
 "Now Oral [Roberts] used to fly airlines," Copeland said. "But even back then it got to the place where it was agitating his spirit, people coming up to him; he had become famous, and they wanted him to pray for them and all that. You can't manage that today, this dope-filled world, and get in a long tube with a bunch of demons. It's deadly."
In fact there are scores of prosperity preachers who talk about Jesus but in my very limited discernment, strike me as untrustworthy and give me the heebee-geebees. Since we're talking about me determining whether my husband qualifies as head of my family, just my opinion applies right? In that case should my husband follow these preachers' leads, talking as they do, I would be left to determine that, no, they do not qualify. Perhaps it's just a cultural difference of opinions, some women might (and do) believe these types of men are in subjugation to Jesus Christ.

There is another man I know of whom you have never heard. I don't recall him ever talking out loud about Jesus. I've never witnessed him read a Bible. I have gone to church with him but not for many years. He's a giant of a man in my eyes though. He is quiet, usually soft spoken, and humble. He's the hardest working man I have ever known who has been instructed to stop working due to his health conditions. Not working has been very difficult for him. He knows nothing if not to be the worker, the provider, the one who tends the cattle. Throughout his marriage of 53 years he has led his wife and his family through times of struggle and hardship while still celebrating joyfully and treasuring the little moments in life that matter most to him. He's given his daughters in marriage and has lovingly held all of our babies. He's highly respected in the community and has filled in as a father and mentor to countless young men in his life. He'll never own a private jet yet in the depth of my soul I know he talks to God and believes Jesus Christ is his Savior.

For me, whether or not a man talks about Jesus would not be enough of a determining factor of if he qualifies to be the head of a family.

Perhaps we can determine if a man is subjugated to Jesus Christ if we know whether or not he's a sinner?

No, no, that won't work. He'd have no need for Jesus if he wasn't a sinner...

Maybe if a good priest or a pastor declares that he is?  That might work but where should a wife go to find a good priest or pastor? One of my local churches has a woman leading the congregation. Certainly she would be the best choice in analyzing my husband for me, right? I mean she must really be gifted and in touch with God to be above the Word and teaching men!

I'm drawing a blank. I mean sometimes you can just tell, can't you? That's it, if a wife can just tell that her husband is in subjugation to Jesus Christ then he is the head of the family and she should be in submission to him.

Okay, I'm done pretending.

 Commentator Just a Regular Guy has an excellent response
God established the husband as head of the wife in the same fashion that he established Christ as head of his Church. He places worldly authority in Governments, Elders, Husbands, Masters and Parents not because mankind is worthy but because God is a God of order and his ways are better than man’s. The fact that he chooses to do this in spite of man’s depravity brings him Righteous Glory. There are no temporal conditional qualifiers to God’s commands because his very nature is perfect, just, timeless and true and to imply otherwise by claiming what God ordained to be valid only when mortal expectations have been met is contrary to his nature and blasphemy.
The men my daughters marry will be their head. They will be in rebellion to God if they are in rebellion to their husbands. That's just how it is. It would do them well to look to the man who leads them currently who is the head of our family in determining who they choose to submit to for the rest of their lives. Regardless how they choose him though, he will be the head without condition or qualification - 'cuz God said so.


  1. Amen.

    It's very telling to see how a woman relates to her father to find out how she will be with her husband.

  2. One of my close female family members had a girl's get together last night. These happened all the time when I was growing up and they have always been great times in my opinion. I was invited and my husband said no because one of the women in my family that will be there is in rebellion to her husband and living with another man and I am not to associate with her. The woman hosting (my close family member) just cannot fathom that my husband gets to go play poker all the time (her version of all the time is exaggerated not that it would matter anyway) and yet he keeps me cooped up by myself at home without female company. When we first moved where we are now, we didnt have a phone and only one vehicle. My family could not imagine how I could ever stay with someone who clearly thinks so little of me to keep me here without a way to contact anyone if need be. I have made my own bed because I spent an excellent amount of time talking crap about my husband before I started trying to respect him in any way and now it just seems that everyone everywhere hates him and I have failed so many times and still talked crap even since I started trying to submit to him and then when I realize how wrong I am I have already complained about him to someone and the cycle continues. We just started going to a church in November and I cannot believe how great it is to be around some people who respect my husband's authority over me. They don't wonder if he reads the Bible enough or talks correctly to God during prayer and stuff... they just like us. They like me too and compliment me. I wasn't sure if a church existed that teaches appropriate headship and submission but this one sure does! Anyway, I haven't been in a situation that had such little hostility toward our marriage ever. It seems like everywhere we go, every one disrespects my husband except his father. I don't know why I am so shy but I am and ashamed and everything and I just sit there when people say stuff to me and I can't bring myself to tell them to stfu. I was always so intimidated by the "matriarchs" of my family and theres a lot of them and then my husband's family is the exact same and... I just have failed miserably in that area but it is so wonderful to be around people who don't do that. Sorry this comment is so long and half way off topic.

  3. That's great that you've found a church where you can be around people who edify your marriage and your husband! I know what you're going through. Old friends who got to witness our disrespectful behaviors toward our husbands are often cruel reminders of how off we were. That's why it is such good advice (for our daughters) to never make it a habit to share our marital struggles with friends and family who aren't in a position to truly help us with biblical wisdom. People in general are so hungry for gossip and discord that they thrive on the personal struggles of others.

    I hope you'll develop what is necessary to say to your family when they are telling you what's wrong with your husband that you appreciate their concern but would be much more comfortable if they kept their opinions to themselves. Sometimes the tough decision needs to be made to separate ourselves from those who continue to plant seeds of doubt and contention in our minds. It's not easy to hear from others that your husband is a this or a that, or "how do you put up with...blah blah blah" etc. When you are ready, apologize to them for having been disrespectful to your husband in having talked poorly about him to them in the past. If they continue with expressing their opinions, it's time to walk away.

    One thing to make sure you never shy away from is putting a stop to having your husband spoken poorly about in front of your children.

  4. Thank you for the great response SD. I know the time allotment for wallowing is much shorter than the time allotment for actually doing something about the problems and I have extended that first time frame much too far.

    I know my situation is hardly unique and every time I want to answer you with but... but... but... that it just needs to be supressed.

    My husband and I had a major blow out in front of family in early Nov. and since then I have not seen any of them (my family who witnessed it). This is in part due to shame on my part for my mistakes and the observation that whatever guard I have toward dignity for my husband is almost completely vanished when I am around some family members.

    But my husband has said that I can't put it off too much longer and he has been gracious in delaying get together's and outright saying no (he is very close to my male family members which is why we have spent so much time with them; they do their thing and the ladies do ours) but it seems like a heroin addict going down to drug alley in that I am hardly firmly disciplined and am more like a reed wavering in the wind.

    I remember once reading a post or comment or something somewhere saying that in the military they choose not to put several recruits with one teacher because the teacher tends to fall under the influence of the recruits and instead they put one recruit with a few teachers so that the recruit is the one being influenced.

    This seems relevant to my life because a) I have learned this past year that I am not a suitable teacher of women and b) I have always been very easily influenced.

    Congrats on your daughter's relationship and sure is blessed to have two parents who are shaping her now to be what she will need to be later. A missionary came to our church this week to share about his efforts in Congo and he said that the biggest blessing in his life by far was that he was raised by two godly parents whose conviction was to train him up to be used by the Lord. That reminds me of you and RLB. Anyway, take care.

  5. a) I have learned this past year that I am not a suitable teacher of women

    I don't buy this for a minute... I'll have a new post up today explaining why. I was going to just respond here but this has been building in me for a while now based on comments I've been reading lately around the sphere so I'm going to make it a post.

    Regarding being very easily influenced and the mistakes you've made. Like a heroin addict, you will have to choose to avoid going down that road. But first, lay it all out there without fear of what they'll say or think about you. The only person you need to concern yourself with right now is your husband and getting that relationship right - because without that, what do you have? Even if it needs to be done in a letter, say what you need to say. After that go back to the first instruction for wives: Leave and Cleave. Start all over. Repent, ask for forgiveness, and go forward. When you are on the other side of a year from having done this you will be so thankful you made the difficult decisions you did. Whenever the temptation arises to consider an opinion of your marriage from someone who is not your husband, you remind yourself "one with him". You'll find that it becomes a very freeing conviction to have. Sarah often didn't know what the heck Abraham was doing. That she was mentioned having been a woman who "did what was right" indicates that there may have been temptations to not do what was right and other women who didn't do what was right. I imagine her looking at this man who others might say is crazy and saying to herself "I'm with you Abraham, I'll pack this tent up once again and stay by your side in the journey, you're a bit of a crazy man but you're my crazy man and I'll remain...with you."

  6. I am sure I have seen the same things lately that have prompted your newest post (I haven't read it yet but I will soon.) I am not drawing that conclusion based on those recent topics but rather what I wrote in this post and the comments under it.

    I love your advice to me and I will definitely think a lot about it today.

    1. I love that post of yours. And the others as well. They are raw and honest and transparent. Great stuff!

      I read a lot of opinions about who qualifies (to teach) and who does not. Those opinions do not concern me. The Bible is silent about a woman's age and ovulation status. We've got "younger" and "older" to work with. We don't even know it's talking about physical age or spiritual age. You know as well as I do that many older women who have lived their whole lives as Churchians (egalitarians) are not even close to as spiritually wise as a young married woman who has surrendered to obedience to God's instructions for wives. Just like the woman I mentioned in my post who helped me. Her marriage is in perpetual infancy because she has not surrendered - she is 18 years my senior - very much a Christian, very much all of the things that Paul requires, and conveniently enough for her, she has never been put to the test of her resolve to submit to her husband - but she is not surrendered. There are caveats and exceptions and blah blah blah. She holds the threat point with her husband. Yet she very successfully saved my marriage through her willingness to speak.

      Another thing I want to mention about one of your posts. The internet addiction thing. RLB and I have been long proponents of finding out where our weaknesses lie and attacking them with all we've got. There are few things more satisfying than conquering addictions. Sure you fail and fall down a lot and that sucks, but the more you ask God to help, the more you get back up and start over. "I will only spend 30 minutes online today" "I will do my work first and only use my discretionary time online." "I will become balanced and overcome all temptations that can pull me off balance"

      See, I've had to go through that process with many many things in my life. I'm a perfectionist, over the top, all or nothing, completely obsessive extrovert. Homeschooling became unbalanced for me. The gym, Discovery Toys, Cooking - if you can believe it! When my daughter was diagnosed with Celiac disease, I had to know EVERYTHING - 10 minutes ago!! :) You get what I'm saying. Being faced with the temptation to become unbalanced is something I embrace and as I have so many times, I overcome it and use it for good. A whole lot of people have learned a whole lot of things about Celiac disease because of how obsessed I was. Many have been diagnosed and are on their way to health. Does that make obsession good? No. It just means I use my experiences for Good. I was a horrible rebellious wife who almost lost her marriage. If I tell my experiences and it helps someone, does it make my sin good? No. But don't squander the opportunity use the challenges you face in life as helps for others facing the same or similar challenges.


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