From this post:
Before Paul gets into the controversial passage of wives submitting to husbands, he first teaches mutual submission– something I’ve discovered to not only be the Godly way to do marriage, but also the most practical way to do marriage. My marriage works because my wife is my equal– we’re in this together and we’re doing this together. I’m not her head anymore than she is my feet… we’re two whole people just doing our best to walk in the same direction together. This means that sometimes she defers to my leadership in a certain area, sometimes I defer to her leadership in a certain area, but whatever we do, we do together as equals.The "controversial passage" he's speaking of is this:
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. - Ephesians 5:22-24So, some of what Paul had to say is applicable. The rest...well, you know, it's Paul - the babbling fool who couldn't possibly have meant what he said one sentence later...
This all comes from Benjamin L. Corey. He's an author, speaker, minister, and writer. He's into a new kind of Christianity. He's a Neo-Anabaptist.
How does he perform these mental gymnastics? In the comments he reveals it. A line from the Clinton playbook: "It depends on what the definition of is, is."
Between the elipses above Mr. Corey says the following:
- the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
- metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
- of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
- of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
- of things: the corner stone
However, I suppose one could argue that I am the "head" but that I have decided as a leadership style to mutually share all power and authority with my wife.His wife is called to submit to him.
This is a prelude to another post I have coming, so hang tight.
Meanwhile, regardless of what you think of Mr. Corey, regardless of how he is openly abdicating what he has been called, by God, to do, Peter is abundantly clear:
Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives - 1 Peter 3:1
Why is it that no one has a problem telling men that the meaning of that verse is to LOVE their wife, but that part about women submitting is anathema?
ReplyDeleteIt's like they expect it to mean something different in the original Greek.
Excellent post, SD.
ReplyDeleteHe writes:
My wife is my equal partner, not my child. I don’t want to lead her, I want to walk beside her.
He gives it away right there. He doesn't lead her because he doesn't want to.
He's a coward, in other words.
Yes, and if you think it's a challenge for a women to submit to a dominant husband, how much more so a coward?
DeleteIf two people are walking together, someone is picking out the path.
DeleteYes. It isn't always a wife's decision to be the one picking out the path. Does it make sense to you that she does so because her husband has required it of her?
DeleteI know this isn't what is typical. Rebellion, on the wife's part, is what is typical. However, it does happen that a man abdicates his role and insists the wife lead and make decisions.
Biblically, what is she to do?
"Biblically, what is she to do?"
DeleteShe must tell him.
Then she must tell him to MAN UP.
Then she must actually submit. My guess is if he makes an effort that it will be a small step to test the water. If she balks he will go back to being a what he was before. If she lets him lead then he will keep trying and with some help (from another man and God) he may eventual get there.
Biblically, what is she to do?
DeleteIt is an interesting conundrum. She is required to submit to him in all things, lest she be in sin. Yet he is telling her to lead the household, which as being against God's plan, is a sin. So this seems to be an instance where her husband is demanding she sin (by taking on his role).
I disagree that he is demanding her to sin. A wife is to submit to the head, even if he does not obey the Word. Peter says this having to know it may encompass anything you or I can conceive of.
DeleteWith regards to leading a household, I have personal experience with its necessity. First was when RLB was deployed and literally unable to make decisions in our household, the second is more recent - having been given full authority to deal with his Medical Board and the dealings with the various people involved with his Medical Board and subsequent Medical retirement from the Army. Granted, I was given this authority with an understanding of knowing his priorities and a trust level that I am competent enough to make decisions he will agree with. Never the less, there have been times that I've had to stand in his stead and make decisions. This is not sin on my part.
I have also handled the day to day finances of our household for the whole of our marriage. I do deliver a quarterly "update", so to speak, of the condition of our finances, but for the most part, I make most of the monetary decisions. I consult him when there is a decision to make that involves more than $200 beyond the monthly budget.
It really is all a matter of a wife's heart. And virtually nothing to do with the actual decisions made. I know my husband and am in agreement with him. I know our financial goals, I know our family's necessities. I know his desires and goals and am an agent in seeing those achieved. He trusts in me.
He trusts in me when it comes to dealing with our daughters. Only because he has witnessed my heart and knows my convictions. I do not lead per se, I execute our previously established goals. There are times when I'll lead our daughters in something brand new that he will cede my leadership in. Only because he knows my relationship with the Lord, my constant prayer, submission, and obedience to the Lord. We may discuss it later, however when in the company of our children, we are always a united front.
I'm not saying this is what the man in this post is speaking of. I hate the saying "mutual submission" - it's an oxymoron. I just want to explore with my readers the need for wives to relent a bit on the rule structure of it all and realize that submission is a condition of the heart and not well defined rules/roles.
Delete"I know my husband and am in agreement with him."
"I know his desires and goals and am an agent in seeing those achieved. He trusts in me."
"I do not lead per se, I execute our previously established goals."
This is what submission looks like. The wife is not a door mat. She is doing what is expected of her. She is working on what she knows to be her husbands (and family) behalf, not doing solely what she wants according to her desires.
I don't know any guys that want to tell their wife every step to take every day. I know guys who wish the wife would get on the same page with them when it comes to making life work together.
Captain and first mate can both enjoy being on the same ship together and both find satisfaction in their roles.
Well done SD, on the post and finding your "spot" in life. Although maybe we should hear from Red on your virtues. :-)
There is a difference between leading the household and managing the household. But after re-reading what the OP wrote, as well as Scripture, I agree that he wasn't asking her to sin. Just failing to lead as he should.
DeleteIt really is all a matter of a wife's heart. And virtually nothing to do with the actual decisions made.
When you say it like this, it makes more sense than it did in my head at the time.
Res, I told her to write it that way...because it's true. So, it is my view of her virtues.
DeleteIt's good to see a women doing what she is told. ;-)
DeleteI didn't doubt her. When people turn their lives over Christ they start saying things that are radically counter cultural.
I seem to remember a bit in the Bible about a "good women" having her husband praise her and her children rising up and calling her blessed. I was thinking more in that direction.
Good post SD. Looking forward to its follow-up.
ReplyDeleteSounds like this "guy" (I refused to give him the honor of being called a Man) is a Gamma on Vox's hierarchy. Clearly someone not fit for the religious role that he now holds.
Great post, SD! And you're so right. It is extremely hard to "submit" to someone like this...someone who is "cowardly." My husband is now beginning to describe himself in this way, so I'm not saying that to disrespect him. But...just this week, I've begun to have hope. And, though I have felt that my task is supremely difficult, I've begun to see what a huge mountain my husband has to climb to stop abdicating his role. I've realized that I need to pray for him oh so much more than I already am!
ReplyDeleteReading that article I just wanted to scream at him, "You're wife is going to despise you down the road for this!" I think songtwoeleven said on SSM's post about hair that nothing kills libido more than a man who won't fight for what is right. And it was so, so just--AH!--ridiculous, the confusion about what submitting means. I want to say, "I don't think that word means what you think it means." What movie is that from?
My prayer is someday to have these things you list. My husband trusts in me wholeheartedly, and for that I am thankful. Until I can trust in him wholeheartedly I will keep choosing to trust in the Lord. :)
The Princess Bride.
DeleteThat's right, I know. That's how Gamma I was.
This idiocy is everywhere in Quakerism where I grew up. A lot of time it's simply well-intentioned stupidity, men honestly trying to uphold egalitarian ideals which turns them into mealy lispers. When a marriage doesn't explode because of it, it just turns into a bland experience for everyone. The men trying consciously trying to include women in every decision and suppress the impulse to lead, the women trying to be decision-makers and suppress the impulse to follow, and the result is everyone milling around, glancing at each other and trying to "reach concensus" as the Quakers are known for instead of just making and accepting decent decisions and moving forward.
ReplyDeleteThis man appears to very badly want to be a child.
ReplyDeleteWhy is he teaching anyone?
Where does he get off tell God that its too bad because he doesnt want to lead?
Dont we call out wives for their rebellion?
" My marriage works because my wife is my equal– we’re in this together and we’re doing this together."
ReplyDeleteYeah, ti works for HER. Talk about having no balls and believing in Marxian BS. What a loser.