Monday, January 27, 2014

So...if women do it, it is good, if men do it, it is immoral?

Deti writes via Free Northerner's post, Christian Masculinity:
Christian women need to be told the truth about men:
Men are attracted to youth and looks. This is normal. Men are not evil, base or perverted for being attracted to youth and beauty. Young Christian girl, if you are not getting approached or asked out, it’s probably because you’re not attractive enough, you’re not nice enough or you’re not available enough. You need to work on this. You need to lose weight, grow your hair out, wear nice clothes and some decent makeup. You might be a bitch, and if you are, you need to be nicer. If you really want to find a man and marry, then you need to get serious about it while you’re young. Hint: 30 is NOT young when it comes to starting to think about getting married. Men want sex. This is normal. It is not evil, base or perverted.
 Deti has said this repeatedly in short form and long. Maybe he'll stop by and deliver a long version of it, his passionate commentaries on the subject are works of art.

The truth about men, regarding what they're attracted to, hasn't been denied in our culture, rather it has sadly been demonized by feminism as something that is wrong. For those of us who don't hate men, don't desire to be one, appreciate that we are not the same, know we were created differently, and value harmonious relationships with them, it is important we learn what they like, without judgement.

Learning the truth of what men are attracted to and developing these characteristics in ourselves can be called Girl Game. Whether you are a single young woman who desires a husband or you are a married woman who desires to be pleasing to your husband, learning the truth about mens' attraction is valuable. You are certainly welcome to waste time arguing about whether or not these things should be true. You are also welcome to not care, just be yourself (if that self is not naturally attractive to men), and see if that works for the accomplishment of your desires (to be married or be pleasing to the man you do marry).

"My husband loves me for who I am." - Great. If you are married to a man who is not interested in the length or color of your hair, amount of fat hanging from your body, physical health, temperament, or submissiveness, you are welcome to continue on just being who you are. I would advise you however to recognize that he may not be telling you the truth. What I've found in reading blogs such as those I have linked on the right is that men in droves are expressing their disgust of what has become of women. From the most devout Christian to the fornicating pick up artist, they are, for the most part, in agreement.

That's interesting, isn't it?

I remember learning that how I wear my hair matters to my husband. I had not thought of it before, I just did my hair the way I liked doing my hair. When we first met, I liked wearing it long, highlighted, sometimes curly, sometimes straight. When RLB told me he wanted me to color my hair platinum and was willing to pay whatever it took to get it that way, it dawned on me that this is something that is important to him. The same is true about my weight, my physical condition, my attitude, and my submission to him. Some of what is attractive to RLB comes naturally to me, some doesn't. That which doesn't is becoming more natural to me as I work on it. Seems simple enough, doesn't it?

An intangible feature that is attractive to my husband is loyalty. It stands to reason if I am physically attractive to RLB, I am also physically attractive to other men. The way I wear my hear, the clothes I wear, my demeanor and mannerisms are appreciated by men. Knowing this, I do things to limit my interactions with men. I do not have private conversations with men and avoid being alone with men. I don't have any conversations with men that RLB does not know about or approve of.

I've taught my daughters this. Just recently one of them told me about a boy she met who she thinks is great. He's intelligent and likes some of the same things she does. She's very attractive, has a pleasant demeanor, and has an interest in a wide variety of things that are of interest to her father and which she enjoys conversing about. I told her that though being friends with this boy seems like a good idea, it's not. While he might enjoy their conversations, he is a teenage boy and will be attracted to her. Their friendship will not be platonic, he will desire her and she should keep her distance until she is ready to enter a courtship. There will be no phone conversations, facebook interactions, or hanging out privately. Because of her natural "girl game" this will happen a lot with her. The reason she will not have friendships with boys is not just for her benefit, it is for the boys' benefit as well. She is to be kind and courteous but respectfully decline any furtherance of friendship or relationships with them.

As Deti said, there is nothing evil, base, or perverted about the attraction boys will have to her. In fact the very things that make her attractive to these boys will be the delight of her husband.

Let me bring this full circle to the truth about women. It has been an enlightening journey to dig deep and analyze the truths about women that are discussed on the blogs I read. When I take the time to ponder that which my husband does that increases my attraction to him I can see these truths within myself. I do have the benefit of being obedient to God when it comes to my marriage. I take very seriously what He calls me to do. It's interesting, though, that there are times when that which I am biblically called to do is easier than others. Some of which has to do with hormones that naturally course through me regardless of external influence. As I talked about in my last post some hormonal responses I have are influenced because of external stimuli like physical exercise. But there is another hormonal response I experience that is influenced by my husband's behavior.

We've been married a minute and have the benefit of being able to look back and make observations of our attraction levels to each other over the years, how they've waned and flowed and we can analyze what all the factors were in play that may have influenced that attraction level. The factors in play that influence his physical attraction to me are the very things that Deti listed. And, wouldn't you know it, the factors that influence my physical attraction to RLB are what has been termed Game in the manosphere. Some of which comes quite naturally to him and some he's learned.

That which he has learned some have called manipulative and not something a Christian should concern himself with. Which is interesting because if those characteristics came naturally to him, all is well and good - right? But because it is something learned - that makes it somehow wrong?

Confusing though, is the same is not said of that which women learn. For example, I used to express my feelings to RLB in whatever manner came naturally to me. This was a big turn off to him because often times it seemed disrespectful and selfish. Now, I express myself to him a way I have learned is attractive to him. Instead of saying, "I disagree with you, the truth is: _____", now I say something like, "I might be wrong, this is what I was thinking is true, tell me what you think."

It's a funny example and here's why: If RLB were to say to me, "I might be wrong, this is what I was thinking is true, tell me what you think." it is not attractive to me, quite the opposite in fact. Those hormones that create physical desire within me crawl into a hole. Bleh! Where as if he says, "No, you're wrong." I have a very positive physiological reaction to him. My heart rate jumps a little, I feel challenged, intrigued and honestly, I trust him. It is easier for me to submit to him when he expresses himself this way than if he were to speak to me the other way.

I'd be interested to know if those who find it somehow not Christian for men to learn and apply techniques that stimulate a woman's attraction to him find it as non Christian when women learn to do the same. And if not, what makes it different?


  1. My husband has never been afraid of me and as such, has never been shy about expressing his preferences. The things I wear that he likes or dislikes, hair, food, etc. He has always been up front. Not a jerk, but direct and with the expectation that I am going to accommodate him.

    It was shocking to me to learn how many wives have husbands that "don't care." The reality is that they do care but don't speak because they are 1) afraid of her response or 2) convinced that they'll be wasting their breath because he won;t change and it's an unnecessary argument.

    Very sad state of affairs.

    1. When it came to my hair, he can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think RLB told me of his preference until he knew he could afford it. While it might seem silly to some, the fact that he really likes the look of long, platinum blond hair, it is true - even if it is cliché - I teased him when he first requested it, I said "so what you'd like me to have is porn star blond hair?" And he very honestly said, "yes." Very well, I colored it and have kept it this color for the last eight years. He's not once complained of the cost of maintaining it and it remains something very pleasing to him to look at.

      Concerning my attitude toward him and some of the disrespectful behaviors I had - that was different. Probably #2 on your reasons why he didn't require it to change. He hated it though. Looking back, I'm embarrassed I ever behaved that way. And it was very sad. I cringe now when I hear women say some of the things I used to say. It was so flippant yet so second nature. I never considered how disgusting it was. The process of changing these behaviors was not just a decision I was able to implement overnight but was a long period of focused effort. I started becoming slow to speak, processed what I was about to say, and either scrapped it as not beneficial or I changed the manner in which I spoke to a respectful tone and wording that wouldn't repulse him. I failed miserably and often. I'd apologize and ask for his patience as I learned how to be more respectful.

      Like I said, some aspects of "girl game" have come easier to me than others.

    2. I spoke to a respectful tone and wording that wouldn't repulse him

      We all know what buttons to push if we want to upset our mates. Not pushing them is great. Getting as far away from the button as possible and not even looking in its direction is the best thing we can do. But we don't do it, because at some level we like to upset our mate when it suits us. Tone is 90% of the battle. A sarcastic tone displays our contempt. A lite playful and teasing tone displays our desire to have fun and be closer.

    3. So I tell of how he requested me to change my hair and then forget to include what he did that made me focus on changing my attitude. I've written about it here in A Love Story and RLB commented on it there as well:

      ...I wasn't such a genius that I was making the right decision on my own. I was very lonely when deployed and I missed my wife desperately. Stubbornly, I tried to keep doing what I had been doing before in our marriage. It stopped working. I couldn't make her happy. I have been reading VP since close to his starting the blog. I was praying and reading the Bible aggressively. The truth just started to reveal itself to me. I was tired of always returning to the same arguments we had had previously. It became obvious to me that I wasn't leading/loving my wife the way God commanded me to do. SD calls it cold detachment. I stopped giving into the tears, screaming, and general shit-tests. I focused arguments on singular issues and would shut down when she didn't follow my rules for interaction with me. I had to be ready to lose the marriage. The truth was we didn't have the proper alignment to our marriage and that needed to change. I was fed up with being unhappy in my marriage and would do what was necessary to fix it. Even if she left, I knew she would return but in proper alignment. I knew she would pray and go to God over something so scary as divorce. I loved her enough to let her go. It was the only way...

    4. I tell of how he requested me to change my hair and then forget to include what he did that made me focus on changing my attitude

      Isn't it basically the same thing?

      It comes down to an attitude of doing things that make life nicer for our mates. There are things that a man or women may not "need" to survive, but it sure makes life nicer when we have them. Red doesn't you to have a certain hair style in order for him to keep breathing, but he thinks breathing and having that makes life nicer. You don't "need" Red to put his foot down for you to keep living either, but the fact that he does makes your life a lot nicer.

      Why not have a nicer life? It's not that much harder than having a miserable life. After awhile doing the things that make life nice becomes a habit just like doing things that make life miserable is a habit.

  2. a single young woman who desires a husband or you are a married woman who desires to be pleasing to your husband, learning the truth about mens' attraction is valuable.


    I'd like to throw this out there for your female readers. If you are a single girl you should play the odds when it comes to what men like. Most men like long hair, dresses, skirts, smiles, friendliness, a willingness an interest in stuff we like, etc. General attractiveness, agreeableness and looking feminine will get you a good man.

    You have a man. Do what he likes/wants. If he is buying you lacy stuff, wear it. If he likes to see you in nothing but his old football jersey, do it. If he is in the minority of men who hate it when you shave your legs and really really wants you to wear a frumpy flannel gown that covers you from head to ankles from Sept to May, then go ahead. Otherwise ask him what he wants, he will tell you. Now if you've been a disagreeable bitch for most of your marriage you might have to start off small. This isn't because he is lying to you, he's just learned that telling you the truth leads to problems. So ask, do you like this or this better. He will pick one. The show him that you value what he wants and DO IT. Men are simple. If you need help figuring this out get the movie "If a Man Answers" and watch it. Go and do thou likewise.

    1. Excellent advice.

      I have not watched that movie but after reading the description, I've put it in the Netflix queue. :)

    2. It's totally a chick flick, with a couple of good points about men. Enjoy.

    3. I don't know why a woman wouldn't want to look beautiful for her husband. You are the ONLY woman your husband can be with sexually. Why not be pleasing to him?

      My husband was initially attracted to my dark hair. A few years ago it started turning silver and I asked him if he wanted me to let it grow in naturally or color my roots. He said he would prefer that I color it. He's very frugal but doesn't mind paying to have it colored every six weeks when I have it cut.

      He also loves it when I curl it. I don't have time to do this every day as it's very long and very straight, but I get out the curling iron every weekend to make him happy.

      Sometimes, our husbands' preferences don't match our own and that's OK. For instance, I'm very self conscious of my backside. I'm petite and thin all over, but I have a "bubble but." It's high and round and sticks out. I'd rather wear baggy skirts or pants to hide it, but my husband prefers me to wear pencil skirts, sweater dresses and skinny jeans so that's what I wear.

      It takes as much effort to wear clothing your husband despises as it does to wear what he likes. Why not dress to please him?

      Lee Lee Bug

    4. I'm very self conscious of my backside.

      Yes but your husband seems to like it. Let him. Encourage him. Giving him what he likes is one of the best things you can do for yourself. He will love you more for it. The more he gets that, the hotter he will think you are. The less likely it is that another female could be a temptation for him.

  3. There seems to be a bit of miscommunication going on. I certainly do not think
    "...for men to learn and apply techniques that stimulate a woman's attraction to him..."
    Is immoral. Why would I? Indeed, such things as staying in shape, dressing appropriately and neatly, courtesy, etc. are part and parcel of being a virtuous young man. My opposition is not to men dressing well, grooming themselves, being courageous, etc.
    My opposition is to the concepts of using words and actions to seduce women.
    I likewise find this part problematic,
    "Men are attracted to youth and looks"
    And...? Is that it? Once my wife hits 30 is that it, she *can't* be attractive anymore? If I meet a 19 year old girl that is gorgeous does that mean I *MUST* find her more desirable than a 22 year old that isn't a physically pretty but us smarter, nicer, and more moral?
    Perhaps if the statement was
    "Men are typically initially attracted to youth and looks..."
    It would be a good starting point.

  4. Okay, so "stimulate a woman's attraction" = moral
    and "seduce" = immoral

    And you can discern the difference of intent, how?

    1. I didn't even say 'stimulate a woman's attraction', actually. I said 'being well-groomed, fit, etc. are part of being virtuous'.
      Yes, they are different things. If no woman ever finds my level of fitness attractive it is still a good in and of itself. If a woman I find physically attractive is, for some reason, attracted to tattoos, poor hygiene, and sloppy dress adopting those things is *not* a good, regardless of her level of attraction.
      I discern intent by believing people when they tell me what their intent is. The inventors of "game" tell me (and you, and anyone else who will listen) their intent is to erode the moral convictions of women for illicit purposes. They go on to say that "game" is based upon that intent and is aimed toward illicit, immoral activity.
      This is why I am puzzled when people ask me why I find "game" morally offensive.

  5. "Men are typically initially attracted to youth and looks..."

    I don't think the list "youth and looks" was meant to be exhaustive. Both have been demonized by feminism as well as a couple other traits men find attractive - loyalty, submissiveness and chastity.

    A married woman will do well to maintain the characteristics her husband finds attractive. Her loyalty and submission will certainly aid in the development of wife goggles as time goes on.

    It isn't a matter of the 30 year old not being attractive. She just isn't as attractive as she was in her youth. RLB asked the 19 year old me to marry the 23 year old him. It is ludicrous to think he'd have been more attracted to the 39 year old me that I am today if I was standing next to the 19 year old me back then. The 23 year old him WOULD ALWAYS, if given a choice, choose the 19 year old me. However today, he doesn't see the 39 year old me as any other man would. He sees the 19 year old me with 20 years of loyalty.

    1. SD,

      This is one of the wisest things you have written.

      A man is wired in such a way that he will over time become addicted to his wife. All she has to do is let him and encourage him in his addiction. Then one day when she wakes up 30 years, a litter of kids, and sagging boobs latter she will see her husband looking at her the same way he did on her wedding night. She won't understand how he sees her that way, but that is who he is looking at. Wife goggles are God's gift to marriage. Men are more than happy to put them on. Why do you women try to stop your men from doing it?

    2. "Men are typically initially attracted to youth and looks..."
      This is what I wrote, not what Deti wrote. And you did not address my questions, at lest not in a way I can discern. Actually, I find your response to indicate you don't understand my point, which is - Deti, like virtually everyone I know that approaches human interaction from the basis that "game" is anything other than a con game, values the material over the spiritual (if they even admit that the spiritual exists).
      This is an error.

  6. Great post SD.
    Great comment Res.


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