Thursday, August 8, 2013

Searching for the balance

I invite you to think through your reaction to the embittered gammas. Unlike the cat ladies to whom you compare them, they never had a choice. They didn’t choose their place in the hierarchy, it was assigned to them. - Vox


I responded with:

I honestly have and will continue to do so. In order to do so, I must remain cognitive about my innate reaction and willfully choose another. This isn't impossible and I suspect there are a few women around these parts who have been able to.

Looks as though I've found one of those women. There is a commenter over at Sunshine Mary's blog, Hannah, who does not have the reaction I've been invited to think through. I've read and reread her comments and believe she is sincere. Her natural reaction to any man remains an enigma to me.

I've read some very angry comments from men on SSM's blog who have 1.) expressed a desire to marry some day 2.) have an understandable frustration for having been raised "Blue Pill" 3.) reject and sneer at attempts from other men to help them become successful in the SMP/MMP.

When I read a comment from a man who expresses the only way he'll  marry is when women change their nature I continue to struggle with my reaction. The nature of women has not changed. Our society has accepted the ugliest of women's nature and called it good and acceptable but their nature, their natural tendencies, that which makes them inherently different than men is the same.

I have read many discussions men have had who are upset about the lies they were told. Lies about being nice guys, that women like nice guys. Lies about what they're doing wrong ("it's not you, it's me"), lies about their potential ("LJBF but stay just the way you are, you'll find a woman who is perfect for you").

So when I come across conversations where men (who seek to marry) are displaying the very things that would prevent them from attracting a woman and then see unavailable women giving them positive affirmations and encouragement to continue, I get very confused. Though this woman might be sincere in her charity and friendliness, how does it help a man in his goal to marry a woman to be affirmed in behavior that in real life repels women?

I know there's a balance in here between my immediate repulsion and contributing to the lie with dishonest approval (it would be dishonest coming from me). I've learned that it is not my place to say anything to the men. I do however want to understand the balance so that I may teach my daughters.

Here are some statements from Hannah that give me pause:
Men being wiser than women and all.
 Proverbs 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.   

Men deserving respect from all women etc.

I agree women should respect men for the inherent qualities the majority posses that are different than the majority of women: their physical strength, logical nature, honor, empathy, etc.

I remain convinced that the icy unapproachable advice is wrong. Women should treat men with respect and kindness. All men.
This is referencing they way I believe it is advisable for women to approach unfamiliar places alone. I don't believe it is safe to have an open and approachable demeanor when she is alone and potentially vulnerable. I've also found it to be highly effective to not attract men.  As commenter, Deep Strength said: The “bitchy resting face” is funny, but they really don’t understand how unattractive that isor in fact actually don’t care.  I do understand how unattractive it is. That's the point. I teach my daughters discretion on when this is appropriate or not. No, I do not believe that an icy look on my face is the end all to protect me, that's ludicrous. It is an effective first layer of defense.
Men are logical rational creatures who God has put in charge they don’t waste their breath with duplicity.
I'll agree that men are generally more logical and rational than women. I don't find truth in this blanket statement. Duplicity is not exclusive to women. 

So, it makes sense the woman I've found, who does not have a negative reaction at all to an embittered gamma, is the furthest a woman can be on the other side of the horse from feminism. I'm certainly on the same side of the horse as she is, but there appears to be miles between us. I'm contemplating what I can learn from this. And again, still looking for the balance.

38 comments:

  1. Don't be confused. It's very simple: Women and gamma men complain because we're looking for affirmation, so that's what we offer when someone complains, and that's what we assume people are looking for.

    I agree women should respect men for the inherent qualities the majority posses that are different than the majority of women: their physical strength, logical nature, honor, empathy, etc.

    Is it not better to honor God for having those qualities and sharing them with men, and praise and encourage men when they emulate God through them?

    And about the sides of the horse, I can only speak for myself, but my "negative reaction to an embittered gamma" is more born of "so form an action plan and fix it" and "being emotional never solved anything" than "you make my skin crawl, you loser, get away from me".

    Hannah is making the same fundamental mistake that feminists do: pedestalize all members of a group in order to form a hierarchy that God did not ordain. Her hierarchy is one in which all men are in authority over all women, in which all women owe all men something more than common courtesy, and that is not what God has commanded.

    That's my take. Here's a grain of salt in case you feel you need it.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I'm glad you responded, I love getting your thoughts on things.

      I especially loved your post 1 Peter 3:7--What Peter Wrote. I hope over time you do more posts like this!

      Delete
  2. SD:

    If I may be so forward with you, what you’re displaying is a lack of empathy. You’re having a very, very hard time showing empathy for what you do not understand.

    I think that lack of empathy is understandable. First, you have a wide range of experience with a lot of different types of men, from very attractive, very good men; to very unattractive men; to very bad men; to the worst kinds of losers.

    Second, you know what you find attractive and you want to point it out to these gamma men. But you don’t know how to do it any way other than telling them how unattractive and repulsive they are. But they don’t need to hear that. They KNOW that. You simply cannot bring yourself to understand that these men were SPECIFICALLY TAUGHT to react and respond in precisely the ways they do. You don’t get that these men were taught and trained to deal with women and address them precisely as they do. They are having to unlearn years and years of training.

    And for what? They’re going to put in all this effort for a handjob from a chubby, entitled, bitchy 4? For a used up, unrepentant, disease ridden slut with a partner count north of 40? Now I know NAWALT; that’s not the point. But what we do know is that Mr. Gamma is not going to go from getting nothing to dating 9s. The best he’s going to be able to do is an “average” woman. The “average” woman in the United States SMP has had 11 lovers before she marries.

    I don’t think men are saying women have to “change their nature”. That’s impossible. It’s no more possible than a man changing his nature of being attracted to most of the women he sees. The objection is to women’s indulgences of their natural impulses (because they can, with near-complete impunity and no consequences) and their near complete obliviousness to their natures (because they don’t have to understand them or even know about them).

    That, I think, is your difficulty, SD.

    deti

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  3. Another thing is the grinding unfairness of it.

    The average woman with her 11 notches will still find a man when she's 30, or 35, or even late 30s, to marry. She'll still get wifed up. She probably won't stay wifed up; but she'll find someone willing to put a ring on it. The stats are showing, Dalrock's shown it; that even though the average age at first marriage is creeping upwards; something north of 90% of all women are married by the time they reach age 35. So her odds are pretty good. That encompasses sex ranks all the way down to UB 2s.

    The average gamma man won't. He won't find anyone willing to get even a beer or two with him; much less to marry him. Even if he improves himself to delta, he probably won't be attractive to even the average N=11 woman.

    deti

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    Replies
    1. Deti, is it better to pronounce oneself hosed and just give up, or to try to improve and get a better shot at what one wants?

      Delete
    2. Sigyn:

      Every man has to make that decision for himself. He has to get intentional about what he wants and realistic about what he could get if he does improve.

      First, he has to assess where he is now. Then he has to figure out where he could reasonably get; knowing that he can at best improve himself two (maybe, MAYBE three) SMP points. Then has to figure out what it will take to get there.

      Then he has to decide whether he believes it’s worth it for him to do the work for the POSSIBILITY of getting what he wants.

      Every man has to decide that for himself.

      deti

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    3. I agree that every man needs to decide for himself what course of action he will take. But deciding to do nothing, and then bitching about life, is not something that I, at least, will respect.

      As for self-improvement, it depends on two things: how old the man is, and what abilities and talents nature and God have blessed him with. A young man with a decent amount of talents can easily boost himself up several ranks in SMV over a year if he is committed to it. Especially if he is lower in the scale. Remember, there are relatively few "Alpha" men out there. Assuming that you didn't lose out completely at the genetic lottery, it should be eminently doable to get into the 7-8 range as a man. At which point you do start to get some options which are a fair bit better.

      Even if you are older, there is always SE Asia. Older husband/younger wife combos are quite common over there.

      SD might be having empathy issues with some of the men over there, but to be honest, so am I. When you refuse to even lift a finger to help yourself it is really difficult to find any sympathy for you.

      If you don't think it is worth it, then fine. I disagree, but I understand. But don't continue to bitch about it. Just quietly Go Your Own Way and leave this all behind.

      Delete
    4. Deti, thank you for the reply. The amount of "you're hosed" in the Manosphere lately has been bothering me, especially being told to guys who COULD get lifted up but are meeting with little but discouragement.

      I am currently working toward figuring out what God wants of us, individually, and it figures large in my mind. This makes me inclined to resist teaching that looks like it boils down to "you're screwed, just give up, there is no mercy under Heaven for you", even if it's not being taught to me.

      Any particular mercy may be offered or not, but to assume that God WON'T have mercy, or that any mercy is beyond His ability to grant, is despair, and we are called to a Gospel of hope, aren't we?

      There's a middle ground here, which I think is being lost.

      Delete
    5. Sigyn:

      The 'sphere is going through some growing pains right now. It needs to decide what it is going to be. Some say "you're hosed, give it up". Others say "self improvement is the answer".

      Again, each man is going to have to decide for himself where he falls.

      There are always going to be some men who will lose in this or any SMP. For those men, there is earning money, travel and large amounts of disposable income to do with what he will; hobbies, spending time with extended family, etc.

      But keep this in mind too: telling a man to accept and face reality that a sex partner might not be in the cards for him is not the same as saying "give up, there is no mercy under Heaven for you". It's also not the same as saying God will not have mercy or that the situation is beyond God's power. It isn't calling men to despair. It's calling men to reality. The facts are what they are. I might be able to date Annie Average; and maybe even marry her. I will not, however, be able to date or marry Kate Upton. Some men might not even be able to date Hattie Homely. The 1s and 2s of the world just aren't attractive to each other. They're just not.

      deti

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    6. This reminds of a joke we heard on Conan. The comedian said, "Did you ever notice good looking people don't have a great story about how they met? It's just...they look at each other and it's an of course thing."

      Ugly people need friends telling them they are good for each other and need to be set up in a manner that tells them who their MMV equivalent is.

      Delete
    7. The 'sphere is going through some growing pains right now. It needs to decide what it is going to be. Some say "you're hosed, give it up". Others say "self improvement is the answer".

      The 'sphere needs to grow up fast, and it needs to be called out when it's wrong. The stakes are too high.

      But keep this in mind too: telling a man to accept and face reality that a sex partner might not be in the cards for him is not the same as saying "give up, there is no mercy under Heaven for you". It's also not the same as saying God will not have mercy or that the situation is beyond God's power. It isn't calling men to despair. It's calling men to reality.

      I agree with this. However, there is a difference between what you just wrote and your earlier:

      "The average gamma man won't. He won't find anyone willing to get even a beer or two with him; much less to marry him. Even if he improves himself to delta, he probably won't be attractive to even the average N=11 woman."

      or

      "And for what? They’re going to put in all this effort for a handjob from a chubby, entitled, bitchy 4? For a used up, unrepentant, disease ridden slut with a partner count north of 40?"

      You can understand why, especially with the "grinding unfairness" bit, it could reasonably prompt someone to feel bitter and resentful and just quit.

      Some men might not even be able to date Hattie Homely. The 1s and 2s of the world just aren't attractive to each other. They're just not.

      But most people aren't 1's and 2's. Neither is the "average gamma".

      I spent a lot of years being told that I was a UB2, because the person who said it wanted me to stay single so he could gratify his ego. This person was a man, a grown man with a wife and a job. Thus, I am not convinced that all of the guys out loving the company of misery are doing it out of altruism. I'm not even convinced that most of them are.

      Solipsism? Maybe. But I do know what despair feels like. It's an empty apartment on Christmas Day, undecorated and filled with the fumes of hard liquor, and the anguish of knowing you could die right now and nobody would know or even care until your rent payment came due.

      Nobody should suffer that, and nobody should feel condemned to it because of the careless words of self-imposed losers.

      And now I am impassioned!

      Delete
    8. "You can understand why, especially with the "grinding unfairness" bit, it could reasonably prompt someone to feel bitter and resentful and just quit."

      "But most people aren't 1's and 2's. Neither is the "average gamma"."

      Sigyn, there are some of these men and women. There always are in every society and every SMP; and there always will be. IN the past these people not destined for marriage entered religious orders or threw themselves into their careers.

      What do we do with these people now? Some of them can become priests and nuns. Most won't want to do that; most will live lives of involuntary celibacy that they will have to learn to live with and accept the best they can. This society and SMP aggressively overemphasizes hotness and that every person (well, every WOMAN) can have it all -- a glamourous life, a fulfilling career, mindblowing sex ALL THE TIME, a hot spouse who lurrrrrves them, 2.6 great kids, a dog, a cat, a picket fenced McMansion in the suburbs, and two Mercedeses in the three-car garage.

      That's patently unrealistic for all but the very top. A few men will never even be able to attract a UB 2, even with work. There will be more and more men who will fail at love and attraction; more than in eras past.

      What do we do with them?

      What do you suggest?

      The answer is important. You know what a society with millions of men who can't get laid looks like?

      The Middle Eastern/Third World Arab nations. Iraq. Iran. Pakistan. Saudi Arabia. They're "controlled" with promises of 72 virgins in the afterlife.

      Is this what we want for our society?

      deti

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    9. We know a couple of boys who are on their way to becoming the men you're talking about, Deti. They are Christian, polite, unattractive, obese, and quite peculiar. We've wondered what will become of them, they're close to hitting puberty. Right now they are very involved in their church and seem to prefer their parent's company over other kids their age. It would make sense for them to marry Christian, polite, unattractive, obese, and peculiar woman - except...

      Delete
    10. SD:

      These are exactly the types of men I'm talking about, and for whom there's no real answer, except.... well, "you're hosed", as Sigyn would say.

      These are the kinds of men who will do well to consider religious orders, careers, and time consuming hobbies. They aren't marriage bound.

      deti

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    11. "But I do know what despair feels like. It's an empty apartment on Christmas Day, undecorated and filled with the fumes of hard liquor, and the anguish of knowing you could die right now and nobody would know or even care until your rent payment came due."

      Sigyn, I could write a BOOK on involuntary celibacy. I could write chapters and books and encyclicals on despair. I too know what it feels like.

      It's rejection by dozens of women.

      It's knowing that a girl you care about is at this moment getting railed by a guy who doesn't give two shits about her.

      It's knowing that a girl who said to you a month ago "I just don't want a boyfriend" then went ahead and takes a douchebag dickbag as her boyfriend.

      It's failing, time and time again, and your mom and sisters telling you that you aren't nice enough and you need to be nicer and you need to do whatever that girl wants and if you don't then you're just a dick who deserves all the loneliness he gets.

      It's "you're a nice guy; you're gonna make some girl a great husband someday!"

      It's being nice, and continuing to fail, and no one ever telling you that you should try something else.

      It's going months without another human being touching you.

      Take all that, and multiply it by 10 years.

      It's finding out that this "Game" stuff really does work; and that female nature really is as dark and fleshy and fallen as the PUAs say it is.

      It's finding out that Dread Game works.

      It's finding out that Christian women are not one iota better than secular women when it comes to the shitty treatment they dole out to their men.

      It's discovering in the starkest ways that in most cases Christian women are EVEN MORE susceptible to Game than secular women.

      So, yeah, Sigyn, I too know despair. Women don't have a monopoly on it, not by any means.

      deti

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    12. A few men will never even be able to attract a UB 2, even with work...You know what a society with millions of men who can't get laid looks like?

      Is it "a few" or "millions"? Please make up your mind.

      And what do we do with them? What business is it of any of ours to "do" anything with them? They're grown men; they can "do" for themselves--and we should let them, because they can probably "do" for themselves better than we can "do" for them. For sure, we can't know them or what God's going to have them do, so it's not for US to do the doing. Give them what they need to know and then let them at life, without biasing them against results.

      It's questions like that that reinforce to me that some of the despair-preachers out there are really TRYING to run (and ruin) other people's lives just so they can feel important.

      Delete
    13. Sigyn, I could write a BOOK on involuntary celibacy. I could write chapters and books and encyclicals on despair. I too know what it feels like...

      If I wanted to listen to a "can you top this misery" contest, I'd hang out with middle-aged women. I swear, it's like they WANT to think they're the unhappiest woman alive, like there's something meritorious in it...

      And talk about lacking empathy; here someone was trying to show some, trying to let it motivate her, and you come along and fling yourself over the top of it, wailing, "Woe is me! My pain is greater! Look at me! Pity me!"

      I may be impassioned, but at least it's not always about me.

      Delete
  4. @Deti
    You’re having a very, very hard time showing empathy for what you do not understand.

    Yes. I think that's what is necessary for empathy - understanding.

    You don’t get that these men were taught and trained to deal with women and address them precisely as they do. They are having to unlearn years and years of training.

    No, I do get this. I'm sure I was part of the problem years ago. I used to believe the "girls want nice guys" crap. I was clueless about the guys who I LJBF'd, that I was potentially a participant in their disillusionment. So this gets to the heart of the answers I seek. Don't get me wrong, I teach my daughters not to be rude. But I want to know how they should most appropriately respond to indicators of attraction from guys they are not interested in. Right now it's simple, they're not old enough to date. It's been working well so far. But they only have a couple more years of that. Already they are getting a lot of male attention. I can't help but think that for them: young, single, chaste, and attractive, this notion of deferring to men with a pleasant smile and a sparkle in their eyes is not the right way to go around horny teenage guys.

    You talk about it often, Deti. Men are not looking for charity and validation from women - men want sex. For a married woman to dole out compliments and praise to men other than her husband still strikes me as inappropriate. And I agree with Sigyn, pedestalizing men in this manner is not what God commands of us.

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  5. Any woman who’s not interested in a man should politely and firmly tell him she’s not interested. She should politely decline further dates and refuse to see or talk to the man further.

    SD, you cannot help these men. All you can do is try and empathize. Deltas and Gammas will have to decide for themselves how they can improve; what they can possibly get; how much time and effort it will take; and ultimately whether the possible return is worth the investment. It’s really just that simple. As donal says, we as men should either do the work and take our chances; or quietly go our own way and stop bitching.

    Most men learn early on that they will have to make their own way in the world, usually through getting educated/trained and learning a skill, trade or profession. We either do what it takes to get those skills; or not. And we succeed and/or fail on our own merits. The problem is that in the realm of intersexual relationships, women have about a 30 year head start. Most men have two and a half strikes against them before they even get up to bat.

    deti

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    1. SD, you cannot help these men. All you can do is try and empathize. Deltas and Gammas will have to decide for themselves how they can improve; what they can possibly get; how much time and effort it will take; and ultimately whether the possible return is worth the investment. It’s really just that simple. As donal says, we as men should either do the work and take our chances; or quietly go our own way and stop bitching.

      And those unwilling should stop discouraging the willing.

      Delete
  6. "Sigyn August 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM

    Deti, thank you for the reply. The amount of "you're hosed" in the Manosphere lately has been bothering me, especially being told to guys who COULD get lifted up but are meeting with little but discouragement.
    ..."



    I understand where you're going with this but there's something else you need to be aware of.

    Many guys talk to other guys this way in order to motivate them. As we all know... men and women are DIFFERENT.

    Women usually need affirmation in order to overcome obstacles. Most men need challenge to push against. Our male friends provide that challenge if they actually care for us. It's harsh and makes girls and girly men cry but it's how we operate. We want to see other men get mad for the right reason. We want to see guys tell the world and conventional wisdom, "I'll show you. This can't beat me. I will do this or die trying." If you can't take crap from your friends you sure can't take crap from the world.


    Some gamma men do have female patterned brains and for those unfortunates they've been gravitating to women all their lives. Male motivational techniques won't work on them; usually. Some of them do get married. I've got some in my family. But turning them into men, I don't know about that.

    ________________

    SD,

    About your daughters, you tell them to use their Father to deflect attention from boys. Have their Father set ultra strict rules and the girls can always appeal to those in order to avoid any unwanted boy's attention. Any boy worthy of spending time with those teenage daughters gets a full-time parent chaperone. It's the only way to be sure.

    Strict fathers are strict because they love their daughters. Lax fathers might as well be their pimp.

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    1. Many guys talk to other guys this way in order to motivate them.

      Athor, I like you and all, but let me just ask you this:

      "Women are feral. They have no principles. They only want the top 10%, which you can't be in. If they do take you, they will take you, all right--to the cleaners, where they'll steal your children and your money and your house and probably send you to jail while they're at it. And even if you don't get married, she'll trick you into making her pregnant or have you arrested for rape just 'cause. The laws are against you. Everyone is against you. All Women Are Like That. Here are the relevant statistics and studies to back me up."

      Do you contend that this is just reverse psychology?

      Delete
    2. Was that a quote of something Athol wrote Sigyn, or someone else? And what was the source if so?

      As for discouragement/encouragement, there is a difference between telling a man that things are bad, so as to get him to step up his game, and this:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY

      Delete
    3. No, it wasn't a quote of his. It was a condensed version of some of what I've read from various sources around the Manosphere, though most of it will turn up in close proximity with other parts. No part of it is exaggerated, although it's not all from one source.

      I'm fine with explaining risks and going in with clear eyes, no problems, but there is an AWFUL lot of defeatism and absolutism, and the abuse of statistics to justify it (for instance, His Lordship wrote up a bit about statistics-abuse in the question of false paternity over at the Domain).

      See, to me it looks a lot more like scare tactics, hamsterizing, and propaganda than like "Pfft, I'll bet you can't climb that mountain, ya sissy." (I'm actually susceptible to "no way you can do that, I'll believe it when I see it", myself, so I understand the pull to some extent.)

      Delete
    4. Maybe my response was lost, maybe I didn't actually send it. In any case here it is.

      Sigyn's composite 'quote' talks about the character flaws of women. It doesn't say anything about what men can do to better themselves or how they can learn to better manage the women in their life.

      For those that can see where I'm going with this can stop reading now.

      If I'm gonna go after a guy verbally I'm gonna go after him, I'm not gonna start describing the world around him and characterizing it as some doom fated torture chamber. That's just pure demoralization and that is not what I was talking about. Good try on the reframe though.

      The things I read in the manosphere talk a great deal about positive things. The mention of female flaws is an obvious call to arms in that context. In short, these are the tools, game, and this, true female nature, is why you need them.

      It seems Sigyn is taking exception to a perceived denigration of women but pointing to it as if it is a negative motivator for men in that men shouldn't even go to the effort of improving themselves because the quest is futile. If correct in my surmise it is a hiding of true motive.

      Do some commenters take things too far? Of course. Hyperbole is a cherished rhetorical tool. But every man that takes the effort to apply the knowledge gained in the manosphere constructively reaps a reward for that effort if he is honest in his assessment of himself and of the women he comes in contact with.

      Is any man assured of ultimate success in this life? No! That's not the point. The point is that he competed honorably and took what he had and improved on it.

      Why are you letting the shit talkers get you down? They're the poo flinging monkeys of the internet. They're funny. Laugh at them like they deserve.

      Delete
    5. Sigyn's composite 'quote' talks about the character flaws of women. It doesn't say anything about what men can do to better themselves or how they can learn to better manage the women in their life.

      No, it doesn't, and that was my point. I am glad you understood. The composite quote was a reflection of all the reasons guys give for NOT improving, and all the reasons guys offer to discourage OTHER guys from improving.

      If I'm gonna go after a guy verbally I'm gonna go after him, I'm not gonna start describing the world around him and characterizing it as some doom fated torture chamber. That's just pure demoralization and that is not what I was talking about. Good try on the reframe though.

      What reframe? Were we talking about you? Why did you assume this was about you? Are you trying to reframe this?

      You said, "Many guys talk to other guys this way in order to motivate them." I disagreed, and said that there is a far cry between motivational prodding and "what's the point in trying?" There's no reframe in this.

      The things I read in the manosphere talk a great deal about positive things. The mention of female flaws is an obvious call to arms in that context. In short, these are the tools, game, and this, true female nature, is why you need them.

      And there's nothing wrong with that. However, when it's "Don't bother" or "Use 'em and lose 'em", that's not positive.

      It seems Sigyn is taking exception to a perceived denigration of women but pointing to it as if it is a negative motivator for men in that men shouldn't even go to the effort of improving themselves because the quest is futile.

      Now you're trying to make this personal, and that's not only ignorant but dishonest and unjust. I don't have a dog in this hunt, believe it or not.

      Quit quibbling about motives as if somehow they made a factual point invalid. Is the preaching of defeatism likely to have a negative impact on a man's risk assessment or not?

      Do some commenters take things too far? Of course. Hyperbole is a cherished rhetorical tool.

      Do words have meaning or not? Is your yes to be "yes" and your no "no", or not?

      But every man that takes the effort to apply the knowledge gained in the manosphere constructively reaps a reward for that effort if he is honest in his assessment of himself and of the women he comes in contact with.

      Right. There is much to be gained. The trick is sorting the lies and "hyperbole" from the truth.

      Is any man assured of ultimate success in this life? No! That's not the point. The point is that he competed honorably and took what he had and improved on it.

      Why are you letting the shit talkers get you down? They're the poo flinging monkeys of the internet. They're funny. Laugh at them like they deserve.


      Good. Preach it loud and clear. We need more of this.

      Delete
  7. SD,

    I have to admit I don't spend much time reading game sites and so I'm not sure about the details of most of your post. The best thing you can try to teach your daughters is about the nature of men, and their own nature.

    Things that you now know about male/female relationships and marriage are the result of years of experience. The best thing you can do is try to impart some of that. Examples:

    1.Men are attracted to females VISUALLY. Dress accordingly
    2.Men like encouragement, smiles a kind word etc. Withhold or provide accordingly.
    3.THe male sex drive is so strong he will do anything to fulfill it, including meet your folks, develop a relationship with you, commit to a lifetime together and marry you FIRST. Hold out accordingly.
    4.The female sex drive is designed to make babies.
    5.Virginity is a females greatest asset for a successful marriage.


    I'm sure there are lots of other principles you have discovered on your own. Your girls need to know about this stuff, as do you boys. Of course the best way to go is for you and your husband to screen applicants and just arrange a marriage for your kids. :-)

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  8. And now I am impassioned!

    I love it when you're impassioned, Sigyn, but not too much, I would hate it if Loki banned you from here. :)

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  9. @Deti
    Women don't have a monopoly on it, not by any means.

    This is not helpful. Sigyn said:

    Solipsism? Maybe. But I do know what despair feels like. It's an empty apartment on Christmas Day, undecorated and filled with the fumes of hard liquor, and the anguish of knowing you could die right now and nobody would know or even care until your rent payment came due.

    Nobody should suffer that, and nobody should feel condemned to it because of the careless words of self-imposed losers.

    And now I am impassioned!


    The two of you are talking past each other. Sigyn's point did not have anything to do with what women vs men experience or have a "monopoly" on. Her point was that nobody should feel condemned to despair and that it is a very real thing (the condemnation) with some women and some men alike. Her point was that these gamma males do not hold the monopoly on despair. That she has been sent down this road. (I remember it, actually).

    Oh, here is where my empathy for these men will be shown lacking. Because I was blessed to watch the transformation of this woman's life (from despair to hope to joy), I know these things are possible. I remember her comments on Alpha Game and her willingness to not reject advice. I don't remember her ever saying to the commenters attempting to help her anything like the following that was said to DrIllusion at SSM's place:

    "Doc,
    I’ve told you this before, but shut up.
    By all accounts I best you on paper. I’m 29, 6’2″, 225lbs, deadlift 455lbs, bench 265lbs and can do 25 dead hang pull-ups. I’m an Electrical Engineer and if I go for an MBA in a few years I’ll hit 6-figures.

    What I am working against is 28years of deep-Beta programming and shaming, and a complete lack of the gift of gab. The former is improving quickly. The latter is not. It is very difficult for me to drive pointless and stupid conversation. The kind that women find most attractive. I can do deep and intelligent quite easily, since that is how I am wired. However, being a flirty, smiley little monkey for someone’s entertainment isn’t something I have ever been able to do, no matter how much I’ve tried.

    So you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about."


    No, she did not say these types of things to the women and men offering her advice. And that's where empathy remains difficult. When I see examples of men and women who have a heart's desire, who submit to advice and instruction, who do not make excuses, who hold on hope, persevere, and pray and then witness these very same people praise God for prayers answered, it is very difficult to have empathy for those who refuse to do the same.

    It is also highly frustrating to read the comments of those who feed this indignation.

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  10. @ SD
    I know the comments that you are referring to from Hannah. Here is what I keep in mind.
    1. She could be commenting on how she acts in one particular situation and not in others.
    2. There is a strange vibe with some female commenters where they seem to enjoy the affirmations from male commenters a little too much.

    Here is my take.
    I was a blonde with blue eyes and a Marilyn Monroe figure by 13. I can tell by your pictures you had a similar problem but no Lion at your door.Male attention exploded at this age from males of all ages. It scared the daylights out of me. Suddenly my friends Fathers were a little too friendly, their Mothers became outright bitches and older guys were constantly asking me out.
    1. My Dad kept the majority of it in check by scaring the crap out of everyone. Picture a large, Irish, bodybuilding cop who wore bandanas and leather jackets on his off time. A date came to pick me up once and Dad sat at the dinning room table eating steak with no shirt on. He never got up. Motioned to my date to come to him. Cut his steak and told him he was not to touch me and to have me home by 11. He had me home by 10 the freakin wimp lol. Your Husband will have his thing that he uses to scare boys. Stay out if it and act really really respectful in front of them. Even putting on a bit of an act about how no one should upset Dad is good. Sets the tone. The Wife's behavior is the "tell" people look for. If he does his thing and you mock or tell everyone not to worry about it it kills it. Not that you would. :)
    By myself it was "resting bitch face" unless I wanted you to approach. It was looking to high class for most guys to approach. You sound like you got this with your girls.

    2. The way women act around other men determines their value and their Husbands rank. Resting bitch face is necessary if you are good looking. Chubby and older I am still hit on. If someone is doing it in front of my Husband they are challenging him. I make sure they know who I prefer.
    3. For daughters, they are to be kind but reserved with males. Period. Smile to say hello and move on. Anything else is reserved for a special man they are interested in. They will discourage anyone they are not interested nicely by being more and more reserved and unavailable. Dad can take care of anyone who doesnt get it.

    It is possible that Hannahs Husband is not high ranking or that she is not very beautiful. My Husband and Father are Sigma. They simply would not tolerate a women acting that way with everyone.
    Now I hug and give a kiss on the cheek to Husbands of good friends. But that is it. Any special attention goes to Himself. Of course I am only looking for attention from Himself.

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  11. Stay out if it and act really really respectful in front of them. Even putting on a bit of an act about how no one should upset Dad is good. Sets the tone. The Wife's behavior is the "tell" people look for. If he does his thing and you mock or tell everyone not to worry about it it kills it. Not that you would. :)

    Insightful and well said.

    A "honey if you kill this one, hide the body better, I don't want you to go back to jail" as they head out the door would be a nice touch.

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  12. Great stuff, Carlotta! Thank you.

    No doubt lacking a lion at the door had terrible consequences. I'm so thankful my daughters have this.

    @Res
    1.Men are attracted to females VISUALLY. Dress accordingly
    2.Men like encouragement, smiles a kind word etc. Withhold or provide accordingly.
    3.THe male sex drive is so strong he will do anything to fulfill it, including meet your folks, develop a relationship with you, commit to a lifetime together and marry you FIRST. Hold out accordingly.
    4.The female sex drive is designed to make babies.
    5.Virginity is a females greatest asset for a successful marriage.


    I think this should be made into a poster and hung on their door.

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  13. You have my permission.

    A couple of years ago our church sponsored a two day teen retreat that centered on sex. The response form the parents of girls was quite surprising. Most of them made comments about how clueless the girls were when it came to boys and sexuality. This was an across the board feed back from around 90% of the parents of girls. More telling was the fact that about 50% of the MOTHERS of girls were similarly clueless about how men are designed sexually. These mothers weren't all one man for life, married as virgins either; a few of the more clueless ones had gone through an assortment of lovers and babies daddies.

    Men normally admit that they don't have a clue what women want. It was surprising to me how many females had little or no insight into the subject of male sexuality at all.

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    1. We really fixate on drilling into our daughters' understanding that men are driven by sex. They get uncomfortable about it but we persist. Our son just says, "Yep, that's the way it is." It's great entertainment. The girls actually seem to want boys/men to not be fixated on sex and be interested in what girls think. It's really funny.

      I had a great discussion with our son about his attractive qualities. He has been clueless about what is attractive and what isn't. Lived in a foreign country - cool. Fired a .50 Cal - cool. Been in North Korea - cool. Have a 99+ test result on math or science - not cool. Very counter intuitive issues going on.

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  14. Red,

    Are you teaching him the difference between what is cool and a worthwhile accomplishment for its own sake, VS what may be cool to the female mind?

    i.e. good grades are worthwhile in their own right, and something to be pursued, but not generally a "hot button" for the female, unless of course she has figured out the earnings ability that comes with a good job.

    "be interested in what girls think."

    We are, when they are thinking about having sex with us. The rest of the time it's not worth the energy to follow the hamster in its rounds.

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    1. Absolutely, we talk about the differences. I was referring to educating him about which things impress girls and which things mean very little to them. As in, which things to talk about when engaging girls in conversation.

      The things that are good in their own right aren't very similar to the things that girls, especially young girls, are interested in.

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    2. I understand. I think my boy is younger than yours. He only sees girls (his mom and sister) as a hindrance to doing fun stuff. I've been teaching him about the importance of doing good because he knows its good.

      I'm struggling with teaching where the line between caring and not caring what others think is. I naturally have a high level of "don't care" but I also want to impart empathy as a general principal. When it comes time to teach how it applies to girls, I'm going to lean very hard on the "don't care what they say" side and very low on the empathy. I expect a true gentleman in thought and behavior. I think that can only be done if his standard for himself is internal. It sounds like you've gone through that. How'd it work out?

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  15. Carlotta, I think Hannah is a Kiwi (Correct me if I am wrong). So, as a fellow Kiwi, lemme clue you in.

    1. Athol is a Kiwi, and he would not be that high on the dating poll.
    2. The average Kiwi lass is stroppy. She is also quite aware that she has to look after herself. Think outdoors -- heck think crocodile dundee, because he's a poser and a wimp by kiwi standards.
    3. There is a sense of mutual respect in most relationships. And among Christians, this is doubled: the churchianity of the USA does not exist because being a Christian is deeply unfashionable.

    An example. I've got two hobbies (music and photography), a senior job, published two articles this year with another one in press and three or four being written, raising boys by myself and hit the gym regularly. But I don't hunt, fish or fix things. Most of my colleagues do everything I do (except the solo raising kids) and hunt, fish and fix things.

    (For those of you in the military, the Kiwis have been in the sandbox. We only do light infantry, but we do it really well)

    A US slacker does not survive down here. The gammas are alone. Hannah is nice to them, because she pities and protects those who cannot stand alone, which is the basic requirement to be an adult.

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