Tuesday, April 30, 2013

A rational MGTOW parry


You're only mostly right here in asserting MGTOWs are losers. Again, I still think you're painting with too broad a brush.

Something I think you're missing is that there are a lot of Christian men (churchian men?) who did all the things they were told to do. They got jobs, got educations, developed themselves as providers, kept themselves fit. But they didn't develop adaptive, aggressive, assertive, dominant personalities which would be attractive to women.

Even those men who did all the right things: develop assertive dominant personalities and raise their status -- were dropped into environments in which the available women rejected them. These were men who wanted marriage. These were men who wanted to obey and satisfy their sexual desires through marriage -- the only biblically sanctioned way to do so.

So they were given essentially choices in which they either (1) married physically unattractive, unappealing women; (2) married former carousel riders who aren't attracted to them; or (3) didn't marry. The men in categories (1) and (2) often find themselves in sexless marriages or divorced.

And so many men, including Christian men, are making the cost-benefit analysis, and thus concluding the possible benefit (marriage to a carousel rider and the attendant difficulties) outweights the costs. True, once a man makes that conclusion he shouldn't be bitching and whining and complaining because it's beta. But is this really whining and complaining, or is it sounding an alarm, a warning?

I think you're missing a few things here, and that's what flaws your analysis, and explains the pushback you're getting on these posts.


I don't think men doing what they are told is justification for not following God's commands. I understand that it happened and I sympathize with it because I was a listener of the same BS.

Even those men who did all the right things... This the problem. They didn't do all the right things. They listened to liars. We can say they were too young to discern, but they aren't anymore. Not if they are on a blog whining. Ignorance is not bliss in this marriage market.

You must recognize the conditions on the ground of battle. You hold to your morality (Christianity) and find the way to succeed with that morality being held true.

And so many men, including Christian men, are making the cost-benefit analysis ... This is simply not accurate. These men don't want to adjust to the conditions on the ground. They just whine. Granted my experience is purely anecdotal, but it is wide spread and opposed by no actual scientific studies.

The only way out of this abyss will be a biblical method. The only alternative to Christian men is to be a leader that will mold a woman into the wife he desires. You won't find a perfect woman to mold. They are just as damaged as men are. You can set parameters for what a mold-able wife would look like/respond like. It doesn't change the fact that you, as the man, will need to lead...and not whine like a little bitch.


  1. I don't plan to ever marry. I don't care what God has to say about it, but I respect your right to take your marching orders from him if you want to.

    God was the one who couldn't make a woman that wasn't bigoted,ignorant,and evil,even after two or three previous attempts and finally gave up and put men in charge of perpetual adolescents in adult bodies.

    Neither you,nor God, has any right to ask anything of MGTOW's since the culture got messed up on your watch and God was the one who messed women up,could have fixed them on any number of occasions, and chose not to.

    1. You are in the wrong place. We discuss things from a Christian perspective here. Go away, vermin.

    2. that doesn't seem like a very chirstian response.

    3. Then you aren't familiar with the Bible. Pick a name or be gone.

  2. This whole MGTOW dust-up seems to be based on one basic premise. RLB sees the GTOW decision as an expression of complaint and a sign of weakness. There is simply no context that decision can be made (other than a monk's existence) that'll he accept.

    I appreciate the stance from a position of dogged determination and as an expression of a man's willpower to forge ahead. However, I disagree with most of the ideological basis of the argument. And that, ultimately, is what means the most.

    For myself, I was never gung-ho on the idea of marriage. It was always something that was contingent on the right woman. However, a point came in my life when I just decided I wasn't going to put any special efforts into becoming marriage material and live my life around the idea of something that seemed damaged in current times. I'd been doing the dating game for well over a decade and there wasn't one woman I wish I had held onto.

    So if you ask me why I made that decision and I tell you it just wasn't worth it anymore, what more is there for you to concern yourself with?
    If there were 4 women in the world and 50,000 men, then would you consider a man not pushing himself towards marriage a smart decision? What's your threshold? How unrealistic must an outcome be before you say 'screw it'? Would you go preach the word of the lord in Taliban suicide bomber training camp? Even if you would, when you inevitably fail and tell me how brainwashed they are, could I call you whiner for having a reason why you gave up?

    There comes a point where the 'man up' cry must fall on deaf ears when the circumstances dictate otherwise. If you're going to criticize MGTOW and lay out the leadership/molding plan as the salvation, then we're gonna need a whole lot more evidence because the only one I recall in recent memory is the wife of the Boston bomber, lol.

    1. Quit beating your own meat and respond. Until then, be a monk or listen to my advice. There is no gray.

  3. We discuss things from a Christian perspective here. Go away, vermin.

    If you cannot see how stupid this comment is.......how counter truth, how wrong and utterly jacked up....you need help, truly. Oh I hate the shaming words I'm about to use because shaming words are cheap but I cant find anything better. Someone who is at once as bitter yet self congratulatory as you has no business proclaiming "here we are Christians, be gone vermin". You make it hard to even feel pity.

    Be a monk or listen to your advice?

    And this blog is a legacy for your children?

    Its a carnival. Id rather read overt heathens.

    1. This...
      SarahsDaughterApril 23, 2013 at 4:53 PM
      Is 1 Peter 3:7 something you deny, Empath?
      Please explain how it is tradcon churchian feminism.
      I don't know you either and am very curious what way it is you live with your wife.

      and this...
      redlegbenApril 26, 2013 at 12:49 AM
      You have managed to ruin a good a decent blog. You.
      This blog exists because of me and the way I think. Me.
      Have you figured out how to deal with the fact that you like hearing what SD has to say, but I am the reason she says it? How can you possibly reconcile my neanderthal ways with SD's decent blog?
      You can't handle the truth. My mentality is what makes a woman right. It's called leadership. The whining of men on female blogs along with their unwillingness to confront their own failings is the disgusting thing to me. Try talking to more Christian men with successful lives and less bitching about women on their sites.

      Go read the heathens until you answer these questions. This is not meant to be a blog friendly to masturbating, whiners.

  4. Empath, you have two issues to address from previous posts, one with RLB and one with me. Address these before commenting again.

  5. Deti: They got jobs, got educations, developed themselves as providers, kept themselves fit. But they didn't develop adaptive, aggressive, assertive, dominant personalities which would be attractive to women.

    Sarah's Daughter: The only alternative to Christian men is to be a leader that will mold a woman into the wife he desires.

    The Protestant / Evangelical Church as a whole is so saturated with feminism that it won't tolerate men (single men in particular) molding women into anything remotely resembling what they desire. It's the men who need to "Man Up" to appeal to the dictates of women, don't ya know? Telling single Christian men who struggle with chastity that they're living in sin is just more shaming tactics that should be ignored.

    Paul claims that it's better to marry than to burn with passion, but the modern church seems content to let singles (both male and female) to endure the latter.

    1. I posted this. You can tell from the posted by moniker.

      I don't argue the state of American churches. It doesn't change the commands from God. Shaming is a proven tactic in fixing people that stray from a cultural norm. The burning of passion doesn't go away from the majority of men. They must confront this.

      How they accomplish this task is their burden in life that needs to work with Christianity and the conditions on the ground. There have been many men including myself that give examples how to do this. We link to other blogs that have important information on how to navigate this nasty situation.

      Finding solutions is how Christian men deal with challenges, not whining like a bitch. We all understand (here) that feminism has created a difficult situation in the Western world. Men will have to lead women out of this cultural problem. Men always have to lead. History is replete with examples of this happening. We may very well be at a decline level event. It doesn't change the fact that men need to lead women out of this situation. It has never worked otherwise.

  6. You listened to it but you def didn't live it. Your notch post, from past sharings sounds above average. Not saying it as condemnation just observation.

  7. Posted before I was ready... So it sounds like you never internalized the BS. As for leading the women, according to you God says to do it. I don't always see the worth in it, personally. And for those many who internalized the BS itrequires a woman who actually wants to be led. And if they can not find one? Or they are already married and their wife refuses?

    1. I internalized it. It was horrible. It took me many years to understand what the Truth was. The reason SD is still my wife is because I lived it.

      It doesn't matter if you find leading women worth it. God commands you to lead. You have to be ready to lead before anyone/any woman will want to follow you. Masturbating, whiners are not leaders. They are the same as feminists and homosexuals. All complaint, no solution. No personal responsibility. Just bitching and moaning.

    2. RLB:

      See my comment below. Are you saying that a man has a Christian duty to marry? Because I don't believe he does. So respectfully, it does indeed matter if a man finds leading a woman "worth it". If he decides he doesn't want to do that, then he can be free to GHOW, not complain about it, accept his decision and make his peace with it, and be done with it.

      For some men, leading and marrying a woman aren't "worth it". If that's the case, there's no biblical injunction against GHOW. But he should then not complain about it.

      But by the same token, RLB, laying out the conditions on the ground is not the same as complaining. I think you are conflating the two, and that is, respectfully, an error you're making that is preventing you from hearing these men.


    3. "I internalized it. It was horrible."

      From past posts you banged a whole bunch of chicks before marrying. That is not internalizing any of the BS. If you had actually internalized it then you would NOT have banged any chicks.

    4. Why, because you know my path with God? Are you the arbiter of all things positive in relationship to Christ? You don't know my or anyone else's transition with God. Go judge elsewhere you den of vipers.

  8. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  9. That's not how it works, Empath. You quoted me having said: "Of course I submit to RLB no matter the circumstance. But he lives with me in an understanding way."

    Then you made this baseless assertion:

    This is an expression of tradcon churchian feminism. Sorry to be blunt...but it just is. This is not an expression that conveys an iota of submissive nature, quite the opposite. Note....I am only writing about the words on the page, I do not know you at all, so take my comment exactly as its intended, this summation of yours is a massive red flag and the type of thing a churchian feminist will pump her fist and yell amen about.

    You seem to enjoy calling all things churchian. Including following scripture. Again, you either need to retract what you've said or explain how 1 Peter 3:7 is churchian.

    Also, saying RLB "has ruined a decent blog" implies it was a decent blog. I can bust out the purple crayons if need be. Claiming to not like what either of us writes isn't good enough here. But it certainly is curious why you keep returning.

    Try again if you ever want a comment of yours to remain on this non decent blog with writing you don't like.

    1. I will try again, yesterday I was blocked, maybe banned, who knows

      1 Peter 3:7 is not conditional, the word "but" in your sentence infers conditionality, which is normative in the church for God imperatives on gender relations, particularly spousal. Though you didn't elaborate, so my objection to your statement is in my previous sentence, there is much misunderstanding about what "in understanding" even means. Joel and Kathy Davisson have developed an entire male supplication ministry out of it, insisting that unless and until a man literally "knows her heart", he fails. They offer an impossible task, when the scriptural imperative is not significantly more than "be nice and accommodating, try and sympathize or empathize" not understand, literally. Like the word or not, the term churchian fits both these things.

      the imperatives, all, are between God and man, not between man and woman. Performance or lack thereof are affronts to God foremost. HE says do this.....not do this IF....full stop. That is the basis of my assertion, hence though perhaps you didnt mean to infer conditionality, my assertion had basis.

      My comments about the blog are simple. I read blogs I disagree with and even dislike the content of frequently. I post and discourse on them. They do not refer to those who disagree as vermin, whining masturbater, etc. A strong dogged adherence to belief and message is great. Instantly insulting and name calling as a response to challenge of ideas is not good form. One can display strength and powerful frame without those things being said, and one is far more persuasive....NOT by being nice in an "everyone get along...Rodney King" way, but by avoiding childish name calling. The topic is interesting, but not worth being provoked needlessly.

      I will not darken the pages further.

    2. Quite parsing. You know I'm not catering to SD until I know her the way Christ does. I live with her in an understanding way and you can't figure out how to reconcile that. One minute I'm a neanderthal to you and the next I'm supplicating. These are your words, not mine.

      My name calling shouldn't hurt your woman-like feelings if they don't stick. You should be able to walk away and not care. You still haven't answered how this decent blog exists despite the fact that SD's mentality wouldn't exist if it wasn't for my neanderthal ways.

      And you're right, you might be banned. Not because I don't agree with you. But because I don't want weenies on this site that complain and do nothing. This whole issue started because of donalgraeme telling us how lucky we were. That is complete BS. We aren't lucky. We work harder than the whiners are willing to. My empathy is displayed by telling you the truth. That's all the empathy I have for losers. If they can't conform to the truth, go away. You can't stop a loser from losing.

    3. You have avoided my question for the last time. If you want to comment again, email me your response.

  10. RLB:

    Brother, you're on fire with passion about this subject. But please hear me out, because I still think you're missing a few things.

    "This the problem. They didn't do all the right things. They listened to liars."

    No. They did do all the right things. They improved themselves and developed dominant assertive personalities. They have a little Game. They are noticing that (1) women en masse aren't worth the effort; (2) finding a woman who is worth the effort is so difficult and time consuming that that itself isn't worth the effort; and/or (3) the risks of LTR and marriage to a woman while a man tries to mold her into marriage material are too great and aren't worth the effort and costs. That's what they're saying, albeit in a whining, complaining tone.

    "And so many men, including Christian men, are making the cost-benefit analysis ... This is simply not accurate. These men don't want to adjust to the conditions on the ground."

    I strongly disagree with this, RLB. These men are indeed making the cost-benefit analysis. They're repeatedly saying in so many words that they tried it. They tried holding fast to their Christian values; they tried leading and caring for women; they tried finding a good woman; they gave marriage their best shot. They have determined that FOR THEMSELVES, the benefits aren't worth the costs, either potential or realized.

    You say these men don't want to adjust or aren't adjusting to "conditions on the ground". But they're telling us what the conditions on the ground are. They're telling us they have taken stock of what they see and hear and know, and making rational, even faith-influenced decisions based on available information. For you to say they aren't willing to adjust to the conditions they find themselves in is just incorrect. That's exactly what they're doing.

    I agree that once a decision is made, though, to GTOW and eschew marriage, then complaining and whining is beta and horribly counterproductive. If you are talking about men who decide not to marry and then just stand around beating their chests and rending their garments about how unfair it all is, then I'm with you. Make your decision, GYOW, and be blessed in it. That complaining becomes bitterness because the continued complaining indicates they have made a decision but won't accept it; or are in a situation but are doing little to nothing to change it. And that bitterness will end up destroying those men from the inside out.

    I would ask you to clarify something. Are you saying that men who GTOW are disobedient to God? Are you saying that a Christian man has a duty to marry? I would disagree with this, because there is no general command that a man marry. Now if he burns with passion for love or sex, then he should marry and it's then incumbent on him to do the things God commands of a married man. But if he has decided not to marry for whatever reason (inability to find a wife, cost-benefit analysis) then I would have to conclude this is not disobedience to any biblical imperative.

    In short, I find nothing commanding a man to marry. We're here to serve God, not to provide our bodies and ourselves as husbands for women. Now service to God might entail being a husband, but that service does not REQUIRE marriage.


  11. RLB:

    And --- what's the problem with masturbation? You keep talking about masturbation. I don't know if you're doing this for hyperbole to drive home a point (porn-addicted basement dwelling loser). Or are you saying these men are satisfying their burning passion with porn or casual sex instead of through marriage, and this is sin?

    Because the issue of masturbation is a different one entirely from casual sex. From a purely practical standpoint, what do you or I care if a MGTOW masturbates?


    1. Because that means one less person to add to the status quo. They link it with unproductiveness and being a loser to deter others from straying. People have been beating it since the dawn of time and I doubt it will stop anytime soon.

  12. No, there's nothing that commands a man to marry, but it's highly recommended by St. Paul for men who aren't cut out for lifelong celibacy, which is most of us. Marriage is the only decent way we've found to build a decent society and a civilization. It's also a sacrament instituted by God to aid in the sanctification of its participants.

    So when men "denounce marriage" in toto, that's not good. One problem is that, if we abandon marriage, we won't end up with a society of celibate monks turning their energies to work and prayer and restoring civilization. A few will do that as a few always have, but the majority will end up fornicating, shacking up in short-term relationships, and otherwise simulating marriage while trying to avoid the legal dangers of it. We can already see that now, and it won't get better as more men drop out of the marriage market. For every true MGTOW who is able to have a successful and content life alone, there may be hundreds who attempt that but fail -- not into marriage but into sexual sin.

    I think that's what SD was getting at in her strong reaction to a commenter at SSM's who was encouraging all men to eschew marriage. If you're going to discard marriage as an option, you have to consider what will replace it. As scarce as good women are today, they aren't as scarce as men who can live a life of celibacy without falling into sexual sin, especially if they live and work around women and don't go off to a monastery.

    If feminism was part of Satan's plan to destroy marriage and the family, it accomplished a great deal, but it's pretty much run its course. It made all the legal gains it probably can, and we're just starting to see pushback, from men who are backing away from marriage and from women who are realizing twenty years of playing Ally McBeal didn't make them happy. So what's Satan's next move in the war on marriage? It's not hard to imagine that it might be to switch to whispering in men's ears: "Marriage is too far gone to save; just let it die. You don't need women anyway; just take up a couple more hobbies. They're all sluts anyway; there's no way you'd ever find a good one while you're still young enough to attract her. Just move along."

    When you say that men shouldn't give up on marriage, the usual reaction is to claim that you're encouraging men to man-up and marry sluts. That's not it at all. You can maintain respect for marriage and the desire for a wife, while still keeping your standards high. If you're open to marriage with a good woman and one doesn't come along, at least you were open to God's will and gave Him a chance to work in your life. Better that than rejecting the option entirely because it looks hard.

  13. I think that's what SD was getting at in her strong reaction to a commenter at SSM's who was encouraging all men to eschew marriage.

    Right. I tried to point that out on my site because there were two different arguments happening:

    1. Marriage is to be avoided, and game is to be avoided.

    2. Marriage is to be pursued. Should game be avoided or used in that pursuit?

    Although I am pro-marriage for Christians who burn (which is the vast majority of us), I do not have a problem with non-Christian men GTOW. It's not my business and they have the right to respond to the unacceptable terms of modern marriage with a "No, thank you."

    Furthermore, Christian men have a duty to warn other Christian men about the reality of women in the church today. You have a duty to be the anti-Driscolls to your brothers.

  14. Here's my two cents - RLB hasn't had an opportunity to read all of this yet so he'll correct me if I'm wrong.

    The fat shaming post I had drew a significant amount vitriol, however it reached a few women and helped wake them up to the truth of what is happening not only to their physical health, but their mental health and their spiritual health. That is exactly what happened to me a year and half ago.

    The assertion has been made that RLB's weenie shaming will not work the same way. Well, it certainly drew out some vitriol. There was a few complaints not with what he was saying but the way he was saying it (very similar to the women's complaints on fat shaming).

    If the manner in which he talks about it helps a man wake up to truth of what he's doing that is damaging his mental and spiritual health, then indeed that type of shaming does work as the fat shaming does.

    Of course not all MGTOWs are like that. Not all fat women are gluttonous. The ones who are know they are. If a Christian man has make pronouncements of going his own way, swears off marriage, goes on at every opportunity about how awful women are, but then indulges in porn and lusts after the flesh of a woman while masturbating, how is this any different than the glutton who professes fat is beautiful, it's not her fault, her husband likes her just the way she is, yet gorges herself sinfully in private and becomes overwhelmed with guilt, despair, and self loathing?

    The comments here and at SSM's have revealed a bitterness that is not conducive to a healthy life. It's a tool of the enemy.

    Thank you Cail. I appreciate everything you wrote. Especially this:

    Marriage is the only decent way we've found to build a decent society and a civilization. It's also a sacrament instituted by God to aid in the sanctification of its participants.

    1. "The comments here and at SSM's have revealed a bitterness that is not conducive to a healthy life. It's a tool of the enemy."

      THAT's the problem, SD. The problem is MGTOWs who make the decision to go their own way; but then whine, bleat, bitch, complain, and bleed all over teh interwebz about how everyone done them wrong. They are bitter. They're pissed as all hell. And they have a right to be pissed. The problem is that unresolved anger leads to bitterness and cynicism.

      I think men being content going their own way and eschewing marriage is a far, far lesser "problem".

      The bottom line is that each man will have to make individual decisions about what's best for his life; and then be content and happy in it.


    2. Agreed. I hope, however you can see the parallels here with fat women. They've been lied to - from the foods they eat to fat acceptance, to husbands who don't make it clear they're not as attracted to a fat wife than a thin one. They're frustrated. They too wish they could either magically lose weight (have a chaste virgin magically appear who wants them), or have society change its opinion of obesity (discourage marriage to one another and say fuck it about contributing to western civilization).

      Also, consider the parallel to a young woman who's been lied to. Who has been deceived. Even having one sexual partner is enough to draw the ire of some of these men. If she's had a few turns on the carousal, she's forever no good - "no rings for sluts." - which is fine. However what happens when she learns the truth? When she repents of her sin and turns away from that behavior?

      It takes work, doesn't it. It takes work to transform a life from being easy to walking in Truth. And, though she may never find a man who will marry her, she still must work and walk in Truth. Not whine, bleat, bitch, and complain about how she wasn't raised with Christian morals, how she was lied to, how the turn in our society set her up for a lifetime of shame and regret. She must walk on, forgive and treasure her walk with the Lord.

      It's very easy to slip back and allow Satan to trick her into feeling worthless. There will be spiritual attacks. But she must never forget the Cross. And that He did it for her.

  15. SD:

    There are parallels between the so-called "fat acceptance" movement and MGTOW. Both were sold a bill of goods about what the opposite sex wants.

    Can we, however, have some empathy for the MGTOW who adopts the lifestyle because there is no other reasonable alternative? Sure, he bears some responsibility. But let's not forget that the overall quality of most American women makes the search for a good wife very very costly relative to the potential benefit.

    The overall benefits of being fit fully justify the costs of the effort it takes to get there, unlike the costs of a wife search in today's market for the average man.

    Second: I'm not sure I agree with the so-called parallel between the reformed slut and the MGTOW. She got to have her sexual fun; it's just that she didn't get the commitment she wanted from the hot alpha stud. In her chastened, chastised state, she continues to bear the temporal scars of her past life. Pair bonding will be very, very difficult, if not impossible. She'll be fortunate to find any man willing to marry her.

    The MGTOW didn't start out that way. He offered himself as marriage material; but was rejected time and time and time again. He adapts to the ground conditions, but continues to get rejected. So he walks away. He makes a rational, tactical decision to walk away to end his search, and makes his peace with it, with himself and with God. He isn't bitter about it; it simply is what it is.

    What else would you have him do? Keep trying? Continue adapting himself and make continued futile efforts at finding a wife when it's too expensive in time, money, effort and opportunity cost to do so? Why? For what purpose?

    I have no problem with the MGTOW who isn't bitter and gracefully accepts that this is his lot. None of us should have a problem with that.


    1. I'm not sure any of us have a problem with the guy who gracefully chooses MGTOW as the best life for himself. I certainly don't. I always try to open comments on this with that disclaimer: if an individual man decides marriage isn't for him, that's fine. It's not supposed to be for everyone.

      I do have a problem with the people who say we should put marriage in the dumpster, that any man who gets married today is a fool who is putting his own neck in the noose, and so on. You know the type. It's not enough for them to GTOW; they have to disparage anyone who doesn't come to the same conclusions.

      I don't know whether this is representative of MGTOW; there's no way to count how many men are happily going about their woman-free lives and not talking about it. The ones who are the way I described above are very vocal in the manosphere, though, so those of us who think marriage is valuable have to deal with them.

      You're right that there isn't a perfect parallel between the reformed slut and the MGTOW, because she had fun and he didn't. SD's analogy to the obese girl who got that way eating the USDA- and doctor-recommended grain diet is a better one. She tries every diet from every expert, and nothing seems to work -- the more extreme they are, in fact, the more they backfire. She finds herself middle-aged, alone, and unhealthy, unable to have attracted a quality man, and she didn't even have the fun of eating tasty food like steak and lobster along the way.

      She's a better comparison to the man who followed all the mainstream recommendations on relationships, watching his results get worse the harder he tries, and spends a decade or two lonely and wondering what's wrong with him. They both have every reason to be bitter, but both will be better off if they can let that go and work on figuring out what to do about it. (Righteous anger is okay, though.)

  16. Do you believe, deti, that it is completely hopeless for some men? That no matter the millions of words they read learning the nature of women and how to respond, learning their own proclivities and how to change, that it will not work for them?

    Do you believe there are hopeless marriages that no matter what the man employs of what he's learned of the nature of women and how to respond, and his own proclivities and how to change, that he still will lose it all?

    You know RLB was a Delta. His first relationship is evidence of it. She was a virgin and broke his heart, turned down his marriage proposal and was found in bed with another man. It was at that point that RLB put finding a wife a priority over money. He quit college. He had a mentor who helped him. He had a two week window for every girl he went out with. He had a list of sorts of criteria she had to meet before he said "next." He moved to different cities. He stayed employed in target rich environments. He observed and observed and observed.

    He did the same type of thing when it came to learning sales. He had a mentor and he faced failure head on, over and over and over again. In six years, he went from two jobs making $8K/year to a million dollar business with over 20 employees/salesmen.

    Do you believe there are success principles whether they be for relationships or for careers, that some men will never be able to apply in their life and succeed with?

  17. The answers to these questions are a function not only of our faith, but also our living in a fallen world full of sinful human beings. Intergender relationships depend not only on men, but on women -- women who have the law, the courts, the lawyers and the police on their side. REmember that men live in a society in which the wife can destroy her marriage and her family on a simple declaration that she no longer wishes to be married, and she can call on a phalanx of governmental aid (including men with guns) to help her do it.

    "Do you believe, deti, that it is completely hopeless for some men? That no matter the millions of words they read learning the nature of women and how to respond, learning their own proclivities and how to change, that it will not work for them?"

    Unfortunately, yes, but I wouldn't call it hopelessness. There are some men who won't be able to sustain a relationship despite their best efforts. Without the help of churches and society backing them and providing cultural and moral force, they will not be able to do it. Or they will get married, but won't be able to maintain their marriages.
    "Do you believe there are hopeless marriages that no matter what the man employs of what he's learned of the nature of women and how to respond, and his own proclivities and how to change, that he still will lose it all?"

    Yes. But it's not necessarily because he learns women's natures or appropriate responses. It is sometimes because she is so stiff necked that she will not respond to his masculinity; or because he's not very good at it; or because she's lost the attraction or never was attracted in the first place. Marriage takes two people: It takes his leadership; and her agreement and willingness to be led. It takes his masculinity and her favorable response to it. He has to be masculine, but she has to be willing to receive it.

    Your story about RLB's single minded pursuit of marriage illustrates my point about men marrying and/or eschewing marriage and GTOW. It's about what they WANT. RLB wanted marriage. He wanted it and he was going to do what it took. Some of these men want to GTOW.

    "Do you believe there are success principles whether they be for relationships or for careers, that some men will never be able to apply in their life and succeed with?"

    Yes. Some men fail. It's their lot in life. It's sad and unfortunate. But especially in this SMP and economy, men will fail. We're going to see much, much more of it as we hurtle toward the end.


  18. I think we're agreed on most of this.

    I know why you've requested empathy. Please understand, we never set this blog up to be a safe landing place for anyone who wishes to complain and whine. If you read through the comments on my post Female privilege, imperative, or reality you'll see how this all started. Nothing gets RLB excited about speaking his peace than to have someone tell him he's lucky.

    We have problem solving mentalities. We have a problem with our current society but will fight and refuse to cower. If most women are not marriage material, I'll raise a couple who are. I urge them and pray daily that they'll do likewise. Thus doing our part in the . refounding of Western Civilization

  19. @Cail,

    "I'm not sure any of us have a problem with the guy who gracefully chooses MGTOW as the best life for himself. I certainly don't. I always try to open comments on this with that disclaimer: if an individual man decides marriage isn't for him, that's fine. It's not supposed to be for everyone."

    Based on I Corinthians 5:10-13 Christians are to hold other Christians to a higher standard.

    "I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But [f]actually, I wrote to you not to associate [g]with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [h]judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

    Therefore, I have a problem with Christians encouraging Christian men to MGTOW and helping them come up with excuses.

    If a Christian man has the gift of celibacy he should boast in it and use his free time to serve God's kingdom. If a Christian man does not have the gift of celibacy then he should work on preparing to find a wife, and then finding a Christian wife. Loving a Christian wife, being an instrument of sanctification in her life, and trying to have godly offspring with her is a major good work that God has given this man to do. It is a big part of his mission on this earth. Ephesians 2:10

    I know there are seasons of singleness even for men whom do not have the gift of celibacy. It took me years to find my wife. I actively pursued 5 women, all were Christians. The first 4 turned me down but the fifth one agreed to marry me. Although I do not agree with RLB's method of fornicating while he was searching for a wife, you have to admire his bulldog determination and the way he made it a high priority.

    We know from I Timothy 3: 2-4 that God expects most Christian men to be married. Also, from I Timothy 5:14 young widows (or women) can not marry unless Christian men are willing to do their part. It takes two to tango.


    1. Bee,

      I agree with everything you said. I think by the word "gracefully" I was trying to imply that he'd given marriage due consideration and decided it wasn't in God's plan for him; not that he shied away from it as being too hard or too scary.

      As a Catholic, I'd even take it a bit further: an 18-year-old man should be discerning his vocation, and if he determines that the priesthood or religious life aren't his calling, he should prepare himself for marriage and start looking for a wife. (Traditionally, those are the only Catholic vocations. Some people now call "single life" a vocation, but that's a modernist invention.)

      I'm not sure how that applies to a divorced (and annulled) 40-year-old man, though, for example. Can he still be sure that his calling (to religious life or marriage) is still ahead of him? Could he have screwed up and missed it? In that case, I'm not sure MGTOW isn't what he's supposed to be doing. But you've convinced me not to be as supportive of the idea in any case.

    2. Cail,

      I think of MGTOW as separate from the path of celibacy or priesthood. I see it as a new, third option. Options 1 & 2 being celibacy and marriage. I was reacting against it because I think only options 1 & 2 are suitable for Christian men.

      Now I see that you were including celibacy as one of many subsets of MGTOW. I think I now understand what your were writing.

      My sample size is small and incomplete. I have not read all comments on all men's blogs. What I have read so far, I have not seen Christian men who are going MGTOW doing it for good reasons. I read where they are doing it because they have given up trying to find a wife, they are afraid they might get divorced if they marry, afraid they might get alimony raped, there are not good women left, I'd rather play video games or golf a lot, etc. Some appear to be doing it by default, they never sought the Lord's guidance when they were young to see if they should be celibate. Now, they are backing their way to possible celibacy.

      As far as divorce and annullment for a 40 year-old man. That is a tough one. I don't know much about either subject and I have not studied the Bible much on divorce, no Bible study on annullment. If you are annulled should you consider yourself as single or a widower? The young widows in I Timothy 5 were less than 60. Does that mean if you are less than 60 you should get married again? I don't know. Sorry.

    3. Agreed, MGTOW typically isn't choosing a celibate vocation; it's just rejection of relationships with women. That's why, as I think I said somewhere else, lots of MGTOW isn't going to give us a society of celibate monks who build cathedrals; it's going to give us a bunch of fornicators and porn-users. The sex drive is too strong to just set it aside without replacing it with something, and if that's not a religious vow or marriage, it's going to be something else.

      I don't know the answer to my question either. The best I can come up with is that the 40-year-old single/divorced man should be open to marriage with a woman who can meet his standards, but he should be prepared to face life without it.

    4. All of this is well said. I don't claim to have been perfect in my pursuit of a wife. I could have done things in a more Christian manner. I blame the lack of guidance and that is why I try be a guide for those seeking the Truth and my children/grandchildren. I pray for them to stand on my shoulders. I am also thankful for the guidance I did have because I have certainly stood on their shoulders.

  20. Another beautiful thread that unintentionally supports MGTOW.

    "Even those men who did all the right things... This the problem. They didn't do all the right things. They listened to liars." EXACTLY why blogs like this are important. The example of this blog's folly can be more convincing than anything I write about the folly of my own nightmare marriage. Bravo!

    "And so many men, including Christian men, are making the cost-benefit analysis ... This is simply not accurate. These men don't want to adjust to the conditions on the ground. They just whine." When I did street preaching and worked with the homeless I wasn't whining, I was warning. I'm glad you can't see that men ARE adjusting to conditions on the ground and refusing marriage and the invitation for violent intervention by a capricious government jailing a husband at the whim of his wife.

    This blog will be in the MGTOW museum in the near future. I have a feeling Red will be a member before long, anyway...whether he wants to or not. LOL!

    God is good!

    1. He is good. He blesses some with children and grandchildren. My family has long standing marriages in tact. It's a habit developed by strong men.

    2. Now THAT is funny!

    3. Aww, a sniping little MGTOW. Hop little rabbit, hop!

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  22. I don't suppose that anyone has noticed that shaming tactics simply do not work on these MGTOW? They have taken a long hard cold look at the court system and KNOW that marriage would get them the dirty end of the stick. These guys aren't stupid. Demanding that they get married is demanding that they place themselves at the mercy of a pitiless court system that would strip them of their property and paychecks in the blink of an eye. Which is worse? A little shaming on the internet or being destroyed by a divorce? Not to mention the emotional trauma of having his own children ripped away from him.
    If the divorce laws are not changed than more and more men will opt out of the system. It's the only way to effectively fight it.

    1. Many have noticed shaming doesn't work on the bottom quartile of men. We don't care about them. They suck at everything and don't know how to accomplish relationships in life. Nothing will change them.

      Changing the laws will not help them either. They are losers. They don't have the desire to change. They are happy in their martyrdom. This is not a Christian path for men. A Christian path doesn't care about the money or hurt feelings.

      Really, the MGTOW whiners can't come up with anything else. Money and hurt feelings...wow...big stuff going on there. Not exactly something that is a Biblical issue for men.

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    3. You're a woman! Why are you tripping around here pretending to be a guy?

    4. I've been a man all my life. I think you are confused. Do run along.

    5. You're lying. Your comments are long on emotion and short on logic. Guys don't do that. Any particular reason for the deceit?

    6. I assure you I'm not lying. My logic is actually quite good. I'm a physicist and have taken a great amount of logic and philosophy courses. I've been a salesman in Fortune 500 companies, I've run my own multi-million dollar company, I've been an officer in the Army, and I've been on competitive sports teams including the collegiate level.

      I stated earlier that shaming is a proven tactic in most successful organizations I have been part of. It works. It works for the society; not necessarily the individual. Those it doesn't work on aren't worth caring about. They won't accomplish anything worth while anyway.

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    1. No anonymous comments and more whining about money.

  24. I came across your web site and thought you might be interested in this;


  25. So what's the fix for those of us who ended up in a marriage to someone who was disrespectful, or who used us, or who was physically/verbally/emotionally/financially abusive? Is there hope we can find a decent woman, if we still desire the married life?

    Unfortunately there are a lot of good, stable, Christian men out here who have made an error in choosing a spouse...not having the social skills back then to recognize red flags and end a relationship before marriage. Years on, now single again, we still struggle to find healthy women for marriage...but now are no longer wanted, ourselves, since we have the red mark of divorce on our foreheads. How do good men and women find each other? Are divorced men even wanted?

  26. So I thought I would give my 2 cents on this mgtow issue here. I know this thread is around 3 years old, and no one will probably even see this, but I thought, why not?
    Reading through the entire page of comments here, I am struck by one thing. I don’t think (I could be wrong of course) that you truly understand mgtow. You seem to have a surface level understanding, but the painting of mgtow men as largely masturbating losers and whiners seems inaccurate to me…but before I get into that I guess I will give a brief background of myself.
    I am about to hit 30 years old. 2 weeks away. I hadn’t heard of mgtow or the redpill until about 3 years ago. I always sensed something was wrong. When talking to women or trying to date them, I couldn’t put my finger on it exactly, but something always seemed unwomanly (if that’s even a word lol) about them. After I dumped a girl I was seeing because she would sleep with other guys after I dropped her off (seriously she called them to come over some nights after I dropped her off, all the while claiming to be someone who believed in God and was waiting for marriage) I was pretty livid. So I remember googling “women suck” or something along those lines. A video on YouTube came up, and I watched it. I have never thought the same since.
    I never really knew about divorce laws, and all that other unfun stuff modern men are forced to endure (it’s been covered at length in other comments, so I won’t beat a dead horse). So I soaked up as much info as I could. I was appalled at what I found. I came across some of Tom Leykis’s older stuff. Put some of his Leykis 101 to the test. Boy was I ever surprised when treating women like crap worked well. I went from women seeming uninterested to interested in a very short time span. I of course stopped, I simply hate treating people (even women) in a manner like that. Growing up in church literally had brainwashed me in this area. Still angry at modern day American church (and I grew up in old-school independent fundamental Baptist type churches too). Screw them lol. Now let me say this, I am a Christian, believer in Jesus, try to follow God as much as I can, and as such a virgin till marriage, I do believe in following the Bible, even if it sucks at times.
    Back to the original point, I see mgtow as a rational (albeit not looking forward to the next generations) response to feminism and a government that wants to see them rule over men. Getting married means putting a woman in a position of power over you. She can, on a whim, ruin your life, take your kids, rape you in divorce court etc. All because she no longer “feels” the same way about you, or whatever nonsense she comes up with. There is nothing you could do to stop it. Sure, a man can learn “game” as the manosphere likes to put it. I’ve tried, it does produce better results for the most part. But that always felt like I was being dishonest. I was modifying my behaviors solely so a woman would find me attractive. That isn’t right.
    I am not trying to be one of those whiners and complainers. Merely trying to give some insight into why some men choose to walk away from the table. Most of the worst experiences I have ever had in my life have come from trying to relate to women, and I have had it easy in comparison to some. I can see why some men are straight up done. At the end of the day, however, one is still left with their God given desires for the opposite sex. Getting mad at God when he doesn’t answer your prayers to take away said sex drive doesn’t help either. Bad road to travel. Maybe a little more compassion is needed for these guys. While I do not consider myself a mgtow yet….I would be lying if I didn’t say it was tempting. The older I get, and the more I see, the more it seems to make perfect sense. While mgtow isn’t giving up, I would be giving up on my dreams of having my own family, and I just can’t bring myself to throw in the towel on that dream, no matter how much its likelihood diminishes with each passing year.


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