So after reading the comments and several suggested links, I have come to some conclusions. First, it's not easy to just discuss a singular issue even with men. Holy crap do people go off on tangents and I get caught up in it as well. Second, it's all about money and power to ministers.
The comments were about no buildings (i.e. debt service), church boards having influence (positive or negative), and withholding money (male control of finances). All of these are money and power related. I propose the best way to deal with a minister is to attack that issue right off the bat. In any opening conversation with the minister, you must set the tone of biblical authority in your life and the resulting consequences. Ask them if their position as minister is more important than the authority of the bible. Ask them if their positions on volatile issues are determined by the denominational view or independent of it. Ask how they differ from denominational doctrine. Have them cite why their view is more biblically based than the denomination. Attack immediately. If they show a disregard of the bible in any of these areas, confront them and give him a chance to change. If he doesn't, move on. It isn't worth putting your family in a non-biblical church to feel good about getting your attendance sheet checked.
So as a man who has just left a denomination due to their lack of following the bible, I find myself incredibly hesitant to join myself with any church. As a wife, do you feel uncomfortable with the idea of just "going your own biblical way" as it were? Meaning, do you need to have some sort of minister to follow?
ReplyDeleteI personally am having a hard time with the idea of having another man that I would have to potentially answer to should I interpret the bible incorrectly, only to rely on his more than likely incorrect interpretation of the same text. I don't like the idea of being in sort of a holy chain of command if you will where I am not the top of the spiritual food chain for my wife.
Hopefully I am being clear. For example, from your "Abraham, check your bitch" post. God is talking to Abraham, and his wife knows this. There isn't an additional layer of a minister. So Abraham answers to God, and she answers to her husband. There isn't the complication of potentially having a weak / feminist influenced minister to act as an additional authority figure. The wife can't pull a "Our minister says I don't have to A.B.C., so there" type of trick.
Does a wife, do women need to follow a minister / structured church? If so, is it because of a lack of trust in her man's spiritual ability, or do they need some sort of spiritual / community consensus that they are following a more correct faith?
Hopefully that was as clear as mud.
I just posted above. I didn't notice that RLB posted this latest article instead of SD. Sorry RLB. I'm hoping SD will read it and chime in anyway.
ReplyDeleteAs a wife who has now been 'churchless' for a few years... I prefer it ;) Yes, sometimes I miss the fellowship, and just being around people who care enough about me to call me when I'm sick, but they didn't really do that when we were attending regularly, so I guess I'm not missing out on much.
ReplyDeleteWe left several churches, for various reasons, and we have been hard-pressed now to find a church that we can be biblically comfortable in. We both are feeling the pull to find a new church, but can't seem to settle on any particular denomination. The perils of being spoiled with hanging out with some amazing theologians, and learning a lot from them :)
I think going your own way spiritually is better than belonging to a bad church, but being spiritually isolated is not a good thing and should be avoided if possible. Sharing your thoughts and ideas with a trusted group will help you avoid eating a raw squirrel on your front lawn, spiritually speaking.
ReplyDeleteWhen RLB was embracing the red pill, so to speak, I was still in rebellion to God's commands for me as a wife. I was still unfortunately believing individuals, touted as spiritual leaders, in opposition to my husband. Once I stopped rebelling and committed to God's commands in obedience to Him, I started to see the wolves in sheep's clothing just as RLB had been seeing.
ReplyDeleteAs my moniker indicates, 1 Peter 3:1-6 is very important to me. I remember reading it as if for the first time. The truth was loud and clear and I haven't had a single doubt about it since. To the contrary, my trust in RLB has been intensified over these last three years that I have been in submission to him:
Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
Sarah called Abraham Lord. No where is it mentioned that Sarah deferred to a man outside of Abraham. I have no need to either.
I really studied this verse, especially the last part "not afraid with any terror" (NKJV) and I cross referenced it with other translations:
-are not afraid with any amazement (KJV)
-do not give way to fear (NIV)
-are not put in fear by any terror (ASV)
-without fear of what your husbands might do. (New Living Translation)
This was very important to me because I had questioned RLB's spiritual discernment previously (while in rebellion). It was something that would concern me (fear/terror - of what he might do). I have prayed and read that verse repeatedly and ALWAYS have peace and conviction of following RLB, believing his discernment is correct - I do not challenge it, and it is exactly what God wants me to do. I believe this vertical alignment is the very thing God blesses with true discernment.
Now, if anyone, man or woman, says something of biblical/spiritual reference, and I don't already know RLB's thoughts, I check it with him. There are times I need to wait for him to pray and read before he confirms or corrects it. But I trust fully in him. As well, I DO NOT read, listen to, or believe what others say if they are in contradiction to what RLB has said - EVER.
From my own personal experience, I would have to say you are on the same track RLB was on. Being on the other side of three years living the blessings of biblical submission, as a wife, there is nothing that would persuade me to do otherwise.
I've eaten squirrel, but it was cooked ;)
ReplyDeleteThat said, we do still fellowship with others in a sense, just not in the traditional 'church' sense. Takes a lot of weeding out to find good people worth spending time with though ;)
"I think going your own way spiritually is better than belonging to a bad church, but being spiritually isolated is not a good thing and should be avoided if possible. Sharing your thoughts and ideas with a trusted group will help you avoid eating a raw squirrel on your front lawn, spiritually speaking."
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I'm kind of surprised that more Protestants who are opposed to the feminzation of their churches aren't setting up "electronic" churches on the internet. The web provides a tool to let them collaborate and connect like never before. Given how inexpensive it can be, surely it can be a great way to break the backs of the Churchians.
Hbr 10:25 NKJV - not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as [is] the manner of some, but exhorting [one another], and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
ReplyDeleteThat Scripture is what has kept me pushing for a good church fellowship. We are at one that seems reasonable to my wife and I, but I suspect the pastor is not fully inline with all that is taught on sites like this. (Though I am not sure I am fully in line with all of it, especially those that I believe stray from the Scriptures.)
I am not sure you can meet this point without being in a group larger than just your family.
I also see a lot of "everything sucks" attitude in the red pill universe, including sites that proclaim to have a Biblical basis. We do need to stand for truth, but we also need to present the truth more than say what is wrong. It is a balance that seems often missing. Has the pendulum swung too far the other way for some?
Reminds me of a church my wife and I visited a long time ago. The women were all silent and seemed quite depressed. That does not seem consistent with a new life in Christ even though it might be outwardly consistent with some of Paul's writings. Lots to think about though as I am trying to think through those myself now.