How can we affect the ministers in today's Christian churches? The more I think about it; the harder this task seems to me. If we start with why they preach the way they do, we might start to get somewhere.
1. Seminary teaching. Much of the feminist teaching starts at the teaching level of new ministers. Looking at Martin Luther's life, you can see why the Catholic Church had such a problem with him. He was involved with the teaching of new priests. That is a huge problem for large organizations bent on maintaining their status quo.
2. Elders/church board. This is again a status quo issue. No one likes change in long established organizations. Usurping a board's desires will lead to unemployment for a minister.
3. Women control spending. The way to raise donations is to keep the butts in the seats that control the purse strings. The fact is most women in today's families control the spending. If a minister starts talking about how women need to change, they aren't likely to park their wide asses in the pews.
4. The minister is the alpha of his group. Even if he is a beta type in any other situation, he has the lead dog status in church. He is not likely to take kindly to a change in his thinking. A parishioner is low on his totem pole of status.
Fortunately, men are logical. I have some ideas about how to address these issues and will share them soon. I would appreciate any input from others on how to address these or other issues. Any problems you may have ended up in with ministers would be welcome as well.
To be clear. The reason this is important is because the family is the foundation of our culture. If we don't have spiritual leaders that help and understand the issues at play in today's society, our families will perish. That is what we are seeing happen in real time. Criticizing and doing nothing isn't really my nature. I make a habit of interviewing ministers and current parishioners before subjecting my family to a church. I have found them wanting. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. A game plan on how to deal with this in the future is what I hope to develop.
SSM is gone...deleted.
ReplyDeleteI saw that. Hopefully just a snafu.
DeleteYeah, I hope so too.
DeleteFast, pray, and give alms. This is Lent in my (Catholic) church.
ReplyDeleteI'm amazed when a christian blogger starts a project without first asking Jesus and for prayer.and when he isn't part of the discussion.
If you, your family, and your minister are all in submission to the Lord things MUST converge - if it is his will and his truth. It is his power, his grace, his will that accomplishes things. You are an active part of thatnwith a unique image and part of his will (where the I and thenLord are indistingishible).
One warning - if you are afraid of what might be true so are trying to draw the line to either side of the gospel truth, things won't work until you submit. This might be style and not substance (an I'm smart attitude), or your understanding has been moving from red towoards blue, but green seems 'enough' so you've stopped before you've gotten to true blue.
I pray without ceasing, so I'm not too concerned about my submission being right. Maybe you can find somewhere else to troll. BTW, how's that whole infallible passing of the Pope hat going?
DeleteRan across this a while ago..... The Christian red pill...
ReplyDeletehttp://quitplayingchurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-christian-red-pill/
Joseph of Jackson's blog is a testament to all about what can happen when introducing the Red Pill to a church.
ReplyDeleteIn the moments where I have put out small doses of the Red Pill, I got massive push-back from one or two older men, and some from the pastor. The pastor himself believes in Mutual Submission in marriage (despite no instance in the Bible where a husband is told to submit to his wife).
Ive been advocating to preachers for better part of 10 years now, regarding manosphere issues. I have tons of email exchanges, and hundreds of saved sermons in text files that I have used to build a comprehensive case that I then have methodically taken before church powers.
ReplyDeleteOnly once did I even see enough traction to say that my words even got past all the ready pat push button responses the preachers have, which are not surprisingly the same ones that women use and you will find them when various trolls pop up at Dalrock and elsewhere. These preacher men are not logical in debate of gender relational matters. Do not assume that you can lay out nice logic, good forensics, and somehow catch a preachers attention therefore.
I'm what some would call a "fundie".
ReplyDeleteSo, in my admittedly limited experience, we don't have as big a problem with this.
I may have mentioned this already. Our pastor was doing a series on marriage and when he started talking about what sounded like mutual submission, stuff hit the fan. The following week he made a statement that I assumed meant he had taken a lot of heat from someone, either the elders or the congregation or both. He corrected himself somewhat. I wasn't completely satisfied. [Wives submit to their husbands, husbands submit to God, and the role He has laid out for them. This is different from submitting to their wives.] I think he had it right in the details, so I didn't complain. Right now we don't have a pastor, the assistant pastor and several of the elders take turns doing the sermons.
So this is how a church where the congregation is in charge is supposed to work, but it only works if you have a standard, such as the Bible, to measure against. I can see all kinds of problems when you lose that standard.
I think the most effective (and potentially the easiest) way to change the church as it currently exists is for men to retake control of their finances and stop tithing to churches that are part of the problem. Tithe to charities or some other worthy causes. If churches got the hint that they had to please MEN for their gravy, changes would quickly be forthcoming.
ReplyDeletePotential solution: get rid of buildings, I think.
ReplyDeleteBut but Daniel...the stage, the sound system, the light show, the playrooms that rival Chuck E. Cheese... How will they ever hear the Word without...oh, wait.
ReplyDeleteThat is a partial solution. The need for people in the pews to get money does seem significant. After all, the more people in the pews, the more money. But Church shopping is more of an issue, I think. Especially for Protestants.
ReplyDeleteRG3 has said he is slowly presenting these things to his pastor. I don't read his blog much so I am not sure what recent progress he has made. What I read in the past indicated that things were going about as slow as molasses.
ReplyDeleteI did a couple of quick searches over there but did not find a post where he discussed this. Perhaps you could contact him.
http://offensewins.com/
People will always be in churches so they will always struggle with being accurate. That doesn't mean you shouldn't push for accuracy, but you need to temper that with a realization that perfection will come in heaven, not here.
ReplyDeletePush for what is right and be tolerant with others outside core issues. I do expect that it is better to win one or two people at a time than to try and correct the whole church at once.
Giraffe
ReplyDeleteFundie has zero correlation to being solid on Ephesians ordered marriage. Quite the opposite, the more fundie/conservative the denomination (or nondenominational) the more intractable these ideas are.
Nova's piece on sola scriptura offers excellent insight into why the "Bible Believin' Churches" where -we just go the the Word, and we just pray for the holy spirit to guide- are so messed up, everything is subjective, and once subjectivity is introduced into a scripture gender dynamic, the ladies can choose a different frame by the moment, by whim.
I have too much experience with men coming to me saying "not my church" to ever accept it until proven. In my neighborhood when I lived in Texas, and coupled with some guys I was in local politics with, to a man 6 of them rejected my ideas when I awakened to the red pill world, saying nope their church was different. We discussed it over a few months, I read or listened online to their preachers sermons where possible, asked them if he said this this or that.....after a few months, 5 of the 6 were shocked that they had missed what was painfully evident after persistent illustration.
Male members (oy, sorry), and preachers alike have feedback loops built in to protect them from truth, truth makes them feel bad, it puts ACTUAL responsibility on them, the kind men are meant to have, not pandering to the wife but true male duty. Its harder, but more rewarding, and its what God intended.
Podles describes the how and why of church leadership being by and for the women as far back as the middle ages, in The Church Impotent, required reading for anyone fighting this issue
the playrooms that rival Chuck E. Cheese... How will they ever hear the Word without...oh, wait.
ReplyDeleteAdaptation of scripture
"Follow meeee, follow me to fun"
If you have kids watching any TV you get that
Sorry OT, but does anyone know what happened to SunShineMary and her blog??
ReplyDeleteGiven how long she has been AWOL, I think that SSM wasn't hacked but quit. Don't know why, so I hope everything is ok with her family.
ReplyDeleteI have too much experience with men coming to me saying "not my church" to ever accept it until proven. In my neighborhood when I lived in Texas, and coupled with some guys I was in local politics with, to a man 6 of them rejected my ideas when I awakened to the red pill world, saying nope their church was different. We discussed it over a few months, I read or listened online to their preachers sermons where possible, asked them if he said this this or that.....after a few months, 5 of the 6 were shocked that they had missed what was painfully evident after persistent illustration.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying my church is not blue pill. It is, but the source of this is not the pulpit in my view. The hamsters get fed elsewhere.