Wednesday, April 24, 2013

MGTOWs hidden sin

There is a vocal minority that subscribe to the MGTOW movement and think it works with Christianity. It is important that Christians recognize that men deciding to go the way of Paul is a valid and worthwhile objective in life. It is also important to recognize the prevalence of monk-like behavior among MGTOWs is somewhere between slim and none.

This is obvious by their behaviors. A man going the way of Paul doesn't whine about what women do. A man going the way of Paul doesn't complain about the state of the world and do nothing to change it. A man going the way of Paul doesn't blame women, but looks at himself. How can he change things for the betterment of fellow Christians? Paul taught and suffered. He didn't retreat because of society. He was vocal about Christ's teachings.

1 Corinthians 7:1-7
English Standard Version (ESV)


Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
Link


The sexual desires of men keep them from doing great things if not properly focused. It isn't a bug about men; it is a feature. This sexual desire can drive greatness in men. It makes husbands provide, protect, build cities, improve technologies, and invent a better mouse trap. If a man like Paul doesn't have this desire, it is considered a gift from God. He can think clearly without regular sexual release. The majority of men don't have this gift from God. The majority must satisfy this desire in one way or another. The only Christian manner to satisfy this desire is marriage.

It is not Christian to value money over marriage. It is not Christian to value feelings over marriage. If you are part of the majority of men (have sexual desire), marriage is a must. Paul's teachings said nothing about avoiding marriage if you could lose money or get hurt feelings. If you are indeed a man that doesn't have these desires, it is a gift from God. If you aren't, logic dictates that you find a wife. How you do that is what I enjoy conversing about.

Teaching my son what to look for in this sea of damaged women is a great goal of mine. My son does not have the gift of celibacy. He likes boobs. A lot. I was not given the gift of celibacy. Porn, ONSs, and FWBs were my norm. It is the norm of the vast majority of men I know. It was literally the only way I could think in any rational manner. All I could think about was where my next sexual release would come from. When I have talked to men about this, I have found it is a 90+% of the population problem for men. Marriage is the only way out for those of us who want to live in obedience to God's commands.

UPDATE: Via Freenortherner.

Gillis Triplett

I don't agree with the lack of a gift of celibacy he states. I have seen it or been deceived by them. However, he addresses many of the same issues I just mentioned.

112 comments:

  1. The answer to this is early marriage. The women refused it.

    Next.

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    1. Next, Plan B. Got one that Christians can do and not fall afoul of God's expectations?

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    2. My "Next" was meant as a dismissal of what was said above.

      "Next, Plan B" for men is to go their own way.The theology of Vocation certainly supports going your own way and dedicating your life to your work.

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    3. Okay, but if they keep getting distracted by the shiny boobs?

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    4. I was most distracted by shiny boobies during my late teens and most of my 20's. To say I burned with passion is a understatement. However, I was taught anti-game growing up through parents and the church so I couldn't buy a date during those years and was ignored by the "good, Christian women." So during the best time for me to marry I wasn't able to get married. When I needed to be married the most, none were willing. So why should I respond when these women my age start feeling biological pull on their bodies and THAT biological pull is much more worthy than the one I dealt with from age 16 to 28? Because they did so much for me?

      I believe Matthew 7:1-2 applies rather well when considered with this excellent write-up.
      http://metalutheran.blogspot.com/2013/04/judge-harshly-for-ye-are-constantly.html
      MGTOW may be judging women, but only as much as these women previously judged these men.

      As I am only 1 year away from 30, my sex drive is much more manageable. And the boobs appear much less shiny when I realize that the bra is doing most of the work and what it is attached to them probably isn't worth it. So they become much easier to ignore. And most other guys my age are realizing the same thing.

      Women think marriage is for them. But God created woman and marriage for Man. And MGTOW have decided they are better off without a mate because the potential mates they see around them aren't just unworthy, but worthy of contempt. And can you really blame them?

      Of course,women are attracted to men who show confidence and decisiveness. Is there anything more displaying of confidence and decisiveness than turning around and not following the script set out by someone else?

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    5. This sentence should read:
      "So why should I respond when these women my age start feeling biological pull on their bodies, because suddenly, THAT biological pull is much more worthy than the one I dealt with from age 16 to 28?"

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    6. Or stop being bitter and find a nice young girl to settle down with. Yeah it didnt get handed to you on a platter. Deal.

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    7. Oh that's right, men aren't supposed to have emotions and if they do they are invalid. I should just forget that I wasted 12 years being sexually frustrated. Be quiet.

      My general life plan is that if I reach 32 without finding an acceptable mate in the USA, I'll travel to either Poland or the Philippines. If I had the money, I'd do it now.

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    8. Carlotta, that kind of comment is not helpful. It is pouring salt on the wound.

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    9. That's not the message here either, ar. Your emotions about it are not invalid and your experience is one that supports my anger towards our society's embracing of feminism. Your story does need to be told so that parents like us are even more convicted in raising our sons with Truth.

      My son is 16 and a student of game. He recognizes his own delta tendencies and rejects them. He and his father talk of the true nature of women all the time. When he messes up, he talks with his dad and moves on. He doesn't treat the young women around him with disdain and hatred, he accepts that they've been raised in a feminist society as well. He has the most incredible stories of seeing the Truth of game come to light. He's not having sex, but he is learning a lot about how predictable girls can be - even when they think they're all strong and independent.

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    10. Ar, I get that you had a rough time of it. You suffered through without help. And apparently you are now losing your drive entirely at the age of 29, which I suppose is a blessing in your circumstances.

      But let's say there are guys who have success with women, and have a fair chance of success at snagging the Shiny Boobs (just a hypothetical). They can actually do something with their drives. The temptation of fornication means something to them.

      Do you still advise such young men to GTOW and run the risk of sinning, or do you agree that they should seek a proper and merciful channel for their inclinations?

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    11. "And apparently you are now losing your drive entirely at the age of 29,"

      Pretty sure that's not what I said. Manageable=/=gone.

      The fact that it is manageable though is a bad sign for the same-aged women who will want my affections in the next few years. Then again, being mean and impatient with them would only work to further attract them.

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    12. Well, I've been told that it's pesky as long as it's there. Not being a man, I wouldn't know, but that's what they say. *grin*

      Anyway, what's your advice for guys in a different sitch from yours?

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    13. "what's your advice for guys in a different sitch from yours?"

      Read Roissy, Roosh, Rollo and Dalrock. Tell them to start being mean to girls.

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    14. I'm not sure if you're not understanding my question. The guys I described are guys who already have Game and plenty of bites at the apple. Is your advice to them to GTOW and potentially fall into fornication, or to seek a godly solution to the temptation?

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    15. My advice to them is to quickly marry the best woman they can and then intentionally avoid Gaming other women so they'll move on to other men.

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    16. You can't avoid gaming other women if you are going to find a wife. It's a sifting process that has to happen. Perhaps you mean avoid screwing other women.

      You have your best choice of women when creating the harem effect. A harem of fuglies is better than orbiting one hot chick. This is something I have been teaching my son. No oneitis. Even if your harem aren't candidates for marriage, they increase your value to those that are candidates. Alternatively, the cream of the harem will rise to the top and you may find a candidate from the harem. Either way the harem works.

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    17. Read it again. Pay attention to the order of events.

      Or I can simplify it for you:
      1. Marry.
      2. Don't Game other women.

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    18. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    19. You don't game them for sex for you, but you need to use the same principles if you want a successful life. I am not talking about the principles of the dark triad, but rather things like keeping your frame, owning the situation, being a leader.

      Those also happen to mostly be the things that will make you successful in just about anything. Most business books feature them prominently.

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    20. Gaming other women when you are married is blatantly leading yourself and woman you aren't to into temptation. By gaming her you make her covet another woman's husband.

      God doesn't care if you have a successful life. He doesn't care about your money or your feelings, he only cares about if you sacrfice yourself to the Feminine Imperative. So says RLB.

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    21. If RLB misread your comment, wouldn't it be charitable to wait for him to respond before you put words in his mouth like this?

      Clearly he read your comment to mean that once you've found who you'll marry you go all oneitis with her. He did not see that you meant after marriage. However, even so, women are always going to find a masculine frame attractive. Who RLB is as a husband will always be attractive to other women. That's how it works. Yes, there's been a few who covet our marriage. Can't prevent that either. RLB is not responsible for another woman's sin. It is obvious other women are attracted to him. I've been with him and had a young woman all twitterpated around him. He doesn't game other women. He presents as a masculine, confident, leader of his home.

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    22. Ar, you are limiting the principles to a very narrow sphere. That is not the extent of their possible use. Would you slip into beta mode if you had a female boss then (after you were married)?

      SD, I would bet RLB uses those principles throughout his life.

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    23. What do you think, Brad

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  2. Ar is right about the early marriage, but I'm not sure all women refused it.

    BTW, there are some, who claim to be Christian, who insist that not having a sexual release is the source of creativity. I was young and puzzled by this when I first heard it. Now I recognize that it was a total lie.

    There are Christians who still believe that eliminating sex, except for procreation, is the right thing to do. They are vocal and active. That corruption should be identified and weeded out.

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    1. Ar is right about the early marriage, but I'm not sure all women refused it.

      I'd give him half-points in some cases. A lot of girls might go for it if their parents (usually both of them, not just Mom) weren't harping about how "You need to finish college, get a degree, have a career! You need to find yourself before you commit to anything!"

      It's such a snarled-up mess; no one thing is completely to blame, unless you want to attribute it all to human nature, which is probably accurate.

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  3. It's tough to pinpoint the 'sin' in your article.

    Near as I can tell it's in this line:
    "
    The sexual desires of men keep them from doing great things if not properly focused."

    Let's be clear here,doing WHAT for WHOM?
    Is there reciprocity or is this expectation unrealistic.

    Here's a clue,if these chores came with the conventional reward men would still be doing them,not going MGTOW.

    What you call a 'sin' is merely a side effect of the actual corruption you SHOULD be looking for.

    It's misdirection,pure and simple.

    (Hamster!)

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    1. Is there reciprocity or is this expectation unrealistic.

      Another example of someone who clearly has not read anything I've written.

      Talk about hamsters.

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    2. To summarize your argument:
      "If God gave you a sex drive, it is a sin not to be married, regardless of whether you use it or not. "

      That argument doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

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    3. Who's argument? That is not my argument. Nor is it RLB's.

      Take a look at what Napoleon Hill has said in Think and Grow Rich

      In particular the section titled: WHY MEN SELDOM SUCCEED BEFORE FORTY

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    4. "If you are part of the majority of men (have sexual desire), marriage is a must"

      Yes it is. It is the crux of the argument. He says so himself.
      It is the condition upon which the entire argument hinges.

      'If you have a sex drive, you must marry.'
      RLB

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  4. See, Sigyn, it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you and your husband a perfect example. You will be called exceptional. It doesn't matter that my recent guest post is a perfect example of a young couple fighting adversity and enjoying Christian marriage. It doesn't matter that I was raised in a feminist household and persuaded to get my good education so I could get a good job and that in meeting RLB all that influence went right out the window. I left them (my family) and cleaved to my husband (hmmm). Nope, doesn't matter, that's extraordinary.

    What is curious, however, is their repeated presence on a blog about Christian marriage filled with testimonies of women changing their rebellious ways due to masculine leadership.

    No examples, no play by plays, no scripts, no millions of words scrolled out on blogs like Vox Day's doling out wisdom for men, no scripture, nothing...nothing matters. It is a hopeless situation.

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    1. If I had screwed around and had lots of sex with other women like your husband did, I wouldn't expect my bride to have not done the same.

      However, I didn't. So it is a standard I hold to any potential brides.

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    2. If I understand you correctly, you are not seeking to get married, correct? However you hold a standard for potential brides. But you've gone your own way and will not get married.

      I completely understand the virginal requirements you have for a potential bride. Our message has never been "man up and marry the sluts." But being double minded is never a good thing. Either you are looking to marry or you are not. If you are not, why talk about your standards for a bride?

      I'd also be very leery of the man who has claimed MGTOW as his movement. His going of the rails the other day here is quite revealing.

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    3. Ditto. Married at 19 and still together. Grew up with two feminist for parents who thought 35 was a nice age for me to consider marriage. I serve the Lord and am an honorable Wife and Mother now. At 18 no one saw that coming. At 28 no one saw that coming. These men sound like those girls still being daddys helpmeet at 30 while waiting for the perfect Christian prince to court them. Marriage is to grow u. Before hand you are just seeds with potential. You punish only yourself by refusing to live the life you could have because it could be a battle. This life is war.

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    4. I have not committed to GMOW, just have no problem with the idea. I defend it so vigorously because it is a completely valid choice.

      I will be GMOW unless I find a good reason not to. A "good reason" would be a woman who meets my standards.

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    5. Ar, then you're not GYOW. You're in a holding pattern.

      The MGTOW they're talking about are the "I'll never get married but I'll take all the tail I can get" crew. These are the guys who are advocating adamantly against marriage, preaching FEAR, and leading young men into sin by denying them the mercy that God offers through marriage.

      I'd ask you what your standards are that are so hard to meet, but it's probably not on-topic. Just try to make sure you're not being unreasonable (which is why so many women were unwelcoming to you, because their standards were unreasonable!), and season it with a taste of God's forbearance toward you. How you apply that is between you and Him. *smile*

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    6. "The MGTOW they're talking about are the "I'll never get married but I'll take all the tail I can get" crew."

      Pretty sure there isn't a Christian MGTOW in the Manoshpere who advocates that. Plenty of non-Christians do though, but in their case, fornication is the least of their worries.

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    7. I am unfortunately at a loss for the exact names of a couple of fornication advocates. It seems to me that Danny from 504 has implied that he is a Christian when confronted on the matter and tried to plead "don't judge", but I can't substantiate that right now.

      I'm pretty sure there have been at least a few. And RLB and SD have written here that a fair number of the MGTOW's they've encountered aren't living celibate lives, so I'm not crazy.

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    8. Yes, there are a few around, Danny being the obvious one. But lets get real - does anyone really believe Christian MGTOWs don't masturbate?

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    9. Please remember, I'm the mother of a 16 year old. One who we try to keep physically exhausted as much as possibly can.

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    10. Well none who claim to be Christian and are going PUA have any right to consider their path anything but sin.

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    11. There's a pretty giant leap between masturbation and sex. Just like there's a giant leap between anger and murder. Not that the severity of one makes the other ok, but one doesn't warp the soul as quickly as the other.

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    12. You can rarely masterbate without thinking of something sinful, so it would be sin in that context. Jesus spoke about the thought being the sin, not just the action.

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    13. True. But you don't become One Flesh with the individual you masturbate thinking of or watching on the screen.

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    14. Well, neither would you become One Flesh by lusting after someone else's wife, but He did say that was still adultery.

      But this one's a subject that usually winds up with more split hairs than a cheap 80's wig, so...

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    15. Are you really saying it is fine for a Christian to watch porn ar?

      I would definitely disagree with that as it goes against the idea that we should watch what we pour into our brains.

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    16. Nope. I'm merely stating that it does less damage than actual sex.

      Everyone seems to be having reading comprehension issues today.

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    17. Then why do you mention it in the context of a way for a Christian to survive without a wife?

      A match and a blowtorch will both burn you. The match may be less dangerous, at least at first, but it can still burn you very effectively.

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  5. These days in all but the most protected micro-segments of society (think "The Duggars" or "The Bates"), marrying early will get you labeled as a freak of nature, and how quickly! When I was reading about Mr. Boston Bomber who was married to a young bride, I noticed how every one of this woman's friends spoke about her. They spoke of her having it all together when she was attending college, and working on her degree. However, they were aghast that she would "drop out of college" at 21 years of age and marry and immediately have a child! Oh, it was the controlling MAN she married! Or, maybe it was ISLAM! She was "brainwashed" into following him!

    Now: don't hear what I'm not saying, because I am NOT saying that they had a healthy marriage or that Islamic religion is acceptable.

    I am saying that the main reason the friends of this young woman concluded that she was "wrong" and "brainwashed" is because she abandoned college and MARRIED YOUNG AND HAD A CHILD YOUNG - not because she married a man of the Islamic faith.

    My husband and I have two children who are in their twenties, and the rest are school-age, preschool and infant/toddlers. The eldest were born when we were very young; before we were in relationship with Jesus Christ. They bear the wounds of our rebellion: they are both sexually active, disinterested and ill-prepared for marriage, and in rebellion themselves against God. We pray for them.

    We also take very seriously our responsibility to raise our remaining young children absolutely differently. We must train them up in the ways of God; we must impress upon them that they are to serve HIM and not the gods of this world, or their own flesh. We pray for our daughters - we do not have another son, though we are expecting a baby in May. If God gave us a son together, we would train him up to obey God and submit to God, but to seek a wife early and young in order to preserve himself sexually. We know what it is to "fight" sexual sin and lose.

    I married my ex-husband at twenty and had our son at twenty-one. We are divorced because he was a philandering man and we were not believers at the time. So much wisdom comes from failure.

    There is no reason why children cannot be raised to act counter-culturally and marry young and preserve themselves sexually for their spouse. Most children are called to grow up and marry and have children themselves. It is imperative that we help them and train them for this. They cannot duplicate what they do not see being lived out before them.

    Song

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  6. Not sure this is the right forum to post this in, but I'm quite excited about this. As a Christian woman I am married to a non-Christian man. He hasn't always been a non-Christian, he has strayed away over the years as have I, but I have come back to my faith in resent months. I pray for him daily, I submit to him and I try my very best to make our home a place of refuge for him. The other day we were sitting on the couch and he brought up God in a conversation. HE brought it up, not me, something he NEVER does. EVER. I pray for him everyday. I ask God to use me as a vessel to bring him back to the word. It must be working, prayer is so very powerful.

    Side note: my husband happens to be a natural Alpha. No one influences my husband. I am so very thankful I am able to make an impact through consistent prayer.

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    1. That is so wonderful to hear, Marie!

      I find it very appropriate here on this thread. Imagine, prayer having an impact on what almost seems impossible.

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    2. Awesome Marie. Paul says men like this can be won over without a word by their wifes behavior. I will pray for you. Keep going.

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    3. The Scriptures can make a strong argument that the spirit remains reborn even if the body and mind go the wrong way. That would mean that your husband may have more pull inside than is apparent.

      I am so grateful that God pushed my desire to go my own way towards His things early on, even though some have viewed me as backslidden over the years. I pray your husband has a similar desire stir in him.

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  7. This is a much better way to convey your message RLB. I eventually understand what you were trying to convey with your previous posts, but it wasn't easy.


    "It is not Christian to value money over marriage. It is not Christian to value feelings over marriage. If you are part of the majority of men (have sexual desire), marriage is a must. Paul's teachings said nothing about avoiding marriage if you could lose money or get hurt feelings. If you are indeed a man that doesn't have these desires, it is a gift from God. If you aren't, logic dictates that you find a wife. How you do that is what I enjoy conversing about. "

    Agreed. Money? It is worldly, so what if I lose it? That doesn't bother me. Feelings? Getting hurt feelings is part of life. But divorce carries with it more than hurt feelings. Depression is just one of the injuries it can inflict on a man. My concern is over my soul. I have seen the damage divorce can do to men, to their souls. That is what I want to avoid.

    I am in my late 20s, and my sex drive is still going strong. It shows little sign of abating. It can, as Paul pointed out, pose a huge problem with embroiling me in sin. We marry to avoid sexual sins (among other reasons, like procreation). In essence, we marry to help us on our path to join our Father in Heaven. But on the same token, marrying is not wise if it would impair or impede our walking that path. A broken marriage would push me towards all kinds of sin, and I want to avoid that. So I endeavor to be prudent in whom I will marry.

    @ Ar

    This is where I have to disagree with you. Reading through your comments, I detect despair. This isn't healthy, either physically or spiritually. You seem to have just given up inside. I can't join you in this.

    For one, as SD pointed out a while ago, Hope is something we Christians are supposed to believe in. Joy is also important. Bitterness has no part in the faith.

    I am not giving up. Whatever part of me that wants to, that part is not of God. It may take me years, but I will keep going. Look at vR, he didn't marry until he was 38. That was a long, hard trial for him, but he didn't give up. That is how we are supposed to act as Christians, we are supposed to keep going, no matter what. If we get rejected, what do we do? We pick ourselves up, shake the dust from our sandals, and move on to the next destination. If it takes me that long, so be it.

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    1. Oh, and that Gillis Triplett gentleman was a real find by Free Northerner. While I don't agree with quite everything (for one I am not a Protestant), overall he makes a very compelling argument for his approach. While the post you linked is sold RLB, I would also recommend the one I am linking below, about women going crazy.

      http://www.gillistriplett.com/manhood/articles/modern.html

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    2. At the moment, my mood is rather acidic. Interestingly enough, I get the most positive female response in this mood because my outcome independence sky-rockets and I get rather blunt in person.

      Interestingly enough, I have had 2 instances in the past few weeks where an older woman has tried to get me in touch with a woman or 2 my age. Of course, each older woman keeps forgetting to get in touch with the person or they don't see them at the event they thought they would. I looked one of the women up. She's an "Art Therapist" with her Masters. The other is some ambitious Chinese girl. Both are late 20s. Neither would work for me. An Art Therapist with a ton of school vs. a firearms enthusiast who wouldn't mind moving off the grid? Don't think so. A career girl vs. a guy who wants his wife to stay home? Not gonna work.

      You probably do hear despair and that's because I look around me and see no reason to hope. Then again, I do live near Baltimore, so why should I have any hope for this area? I was hoping to find a new job away from here, but the only stuff that came up was in this area.

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    3. Today, AR. You may have a lot of tomorrows still. As long as there is God, there is reason to hope.

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    4. God can redeem rough pasts, of all kinds ar. I have no idea what the optimal path is for you now, but I am sure it is not just being cynical. I can agree with the tendency to be such had I found myself single a few years ago after some really rough times raising our adopted children, but I am glad I didn't have to deal with that. I might have following more of a going my own way path, but it would have almost certainly be sinful, even at my older age.

      I would not compromise your standards, but consider looking at least a few years younger. It is possible that someone may be in a career out of necessity and yet would adapt to what you envision more than may seem immediately apparent. That is not easy to tell outwardly, so seek His wisdom above all.

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    5. Sorry, there is no hope for what I seek in this area.

      There is a reason why Roissy and Roosh perfected the coldest and most ruthless aspects Game in this region. Because the women are feral.

      http://ar10308.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/charming-maryland-girls/
      http://ar10308.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/wretched-hive/

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    6. Oh and this lovely story:

      http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/04/24/black_guerilla_family_how_a_gang_took_over_baltimore_s_jails.html

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    7. AR, I meant that there were many more tomorrows where you could look at moving. The jobs not being elsewhere today doesn't mean they won't open up tomorrow.

      Or you might consider jumping tracks and trying something else. I don't know what you do, but you never know, there might be room for more flexibility than you thought.

      If the local culture's bad, yeah, you're probably fishing in the wrong puddle.

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    8. But divorce carries with it more than hurt feelings. Depression is just one of the injuries it can inflict on a man. My concern is over my soul. I have seen the damage divorce can do to men, to their souls. That is what I want to avoid.

      This is why I advocate polygamy for Christians. It protects the man's mental stability. If his wife leaves him. He isn't divorced. He's polygamous. Not great but better than the alternative.

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    9. If a man can't attract a single wife, he will probably have trouble attracting several!

      Protecting ourselves from hurt is not God's way of living.

      Keep in mind that even a 50% marriage failure rate means that 50% of the marriages succeed! I don't know the exact rate now, but many do succeed. My wife and I will hit our 25th year anniversary in August, so it can be done. We are even statistically at more danger as she is slightly older than I am, we married at 26 and 28, etc.

      It can be done. Though I claim to have an "arranged marriage" by God, which is certainly outside the mainstream.

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    10. This is why I advocate polygamy for Christians.

      Ah, so one guy should be able to snatch up all the decent, Christian women and leave the other guys without?

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    11. Practicing Polygamy would certainly demolish any claim to authority a Christian would have in the church.

      So how does the ploygamy thing jive with your belief that all men who have a sex drive being required to marry if all the marriagable women get snapped up by the Christian Alpha polygamists?

      If it wasn't clear before, it certainly is now. This entire is about the frame of the author.

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  8. Regarding Polygamy:

    Oh, RLB said that word again, didn't he.

    When a wife remains in her rebellion, a man still has many options. Should she get a divorce decree from the State, are they divorced in God's eyes?

    Can he move on and marry another woman in God's eyes, without it being sin? If he can financially take care of both households, it appears the answer is yes, biblically.

    RLB is talking about a man's mental stability.

    What you read in "I'll always love you" was what RLB was committed to. This did not mean that if I left him he would become celibate.

    I was aware that he would not be alone long. And I was the one who was sinning. As a woman, the knowledge that I had failed as the first wife and that RLB would be looking for a non rebellious wife certainly had an affect on me getting my life right.

    As Spacebunny says: "I can explain it to you, I can't understand it for you."

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    1. That still doesn't account for what lesser guys should do if there are LITERALLY no decent Christian women left because the local rich alpha snapped them all up (which, in this day and age, is a distinct possibility).

      Also, is it a legitimate Christian tactic to drive other believers by jealousy and fear? I'd like a citation on that, if you have one.

      I understand your position. I just don't agree that it's a good option or even a "better-than-the-alternative" option.

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    2. Whether it's a tactic or not, it is a reality when a man presents a rebellious woman with a strong masculine frame. It's not so much a fear but a reality. On two different occasions, I've had women talk to me about them considering divorcing their husbands. Both times I said, "your husband is a very attractive man, he won't stay single long. Are you prepared to see him with another woman or have another woman around your children?" Neither of them had thought about it before and both snapped back into reality and pursued making their marriages better instead of leaving their husbands.

      We don't advocate instilling dread in marriage. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. When a man will not compromise or supplicate, a woman should know that there will be other women very attracted to that frame.

      I know a lot of men who are divorced from their first wives. I can only think of a handful that aren't remarried. Funny though, two of the single ones have full custody of their children.

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    3. There's a long distance between supplication/compromise and declining to use dread, though, wouldn't you agree? One can have a strong frame without inducing actual jealousy.

      As a side note, why would this "he'll replace you" reasoning even apply? If he wants to get another wife--and likely should, if he's got the hots for her and polygyny is legitimate--then what difference does it make if Wife #1 leaves or stays?

      Again, it also leaves another Christian man without a wife. We're still stuck with that.

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    4. First scenario: A man goes to his wife and says, "I'm going to marry another woman. You will be taken care of precisely as you are right now. I will provide equally for both of you and equally for all of my children." - Would he be sinning?

      Second scenario: A woman hires a lawyer and gets a divorce decree from the State. Her husband purchases another marriage certificate from the State and marries another woman. - Is he sinning?

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    5. A woman, on the other hand, should she get a divorce decree from the State, purchase another marriage certificate from the state and have sex with man number two while her husband is still alive, is sinning.

      Christian women should understand this, repent of their rebellion to God's commands for her in marriage, and along with submitting to and respecting her husband out of obedience to God, should also appreciate her husband's choice of monogamy.

      Delete
    6. I remain unconvinced that polygamy is something to seriously consider as a Christian. That is in large part because I think anything that "misses the mark" should be avoided and it was 2 in the beginning. I see the point, but I cannot agree with that.

      Though I have never heard those advocating polygamy say it was only useful when a women was in complete rebellion. What happens if the women turns around? You are still stuck with at least two wives and that would almost certainly be a messy situation no matter how appealing it is to the mind.

      Note that God never told Hosea to take another wife, even though his wife was very much the image of rebellion (per the purpose of his life). Sometimes this life truly sucks. Not much you can do about that.

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    7. You are still stuck with at least two wives and that would almost certainly be a messy situation no matter how appealing it is to the mind.

      Yep. Sarah had to deal with that. Her rebellion left an earthly consequence that wouldn't go away.

      Abraham didn't sin.

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    8. First scenario: A man goes to his wife and says, "I'm going to marry another woman. You will be taken care of precisely as you are right now. I will provide equally for both of you and equally for all of my children." - Would he be sinning?

      That's not the point. Whether he's sinning or not, what happens to the horny guy who's now left without a wife?

      Second point, which I'm not sure you're getting: If he can already do this, and do it while fully within his rights, why should it matter to her in the least that she's apt to be replaced? What influence could it possibly have?

      Second scenario: A woman hires a lawyer and gets a divorce decree from the State. Her husband purchases another marriage certificate from the State and marries another woman. - Is he sinning?

      Why do you assume that I'm defending at-will divorce and/or serial monogamy? This isn't even relevant.

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    9. Abraham didn't sin.

      Why did Abraham agree to take Hagar?

      Delete
    10. I don't believe women who profess to be Christian understand that their husbands are not sinning when taking a second wife but they are should they divorce their husbands and remarry. The church is not being honest about this.

      Should there be honesty from the pulpit about this, it *may* help husbands hold and maintain the headships of their marriages. It *may* send a message to women of how wrong they've are and nudge them to seek Truth - thus repent from their rebellion.

      I didn't mean to imply you are defending those things. Again, my point is this is not being told to wives, it had nothing to do with what you said.

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    11. "And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai."

      Abraham taking Hagar as his wife was not sin. Even though Sarah seemed to think is should be based on her feelings after the fact:

      5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “My wrong be upon you! I gave my maid into your embrace; and when she saw that she had conceived, I became despised in her eyes. The Lord judge between you and me.”

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    12. I don't believe women who profess to be Christian understand that their husbands are not sinning when taking a second wife but they are should they divorce their husbands and remarry. The church is not being honest about this.

      Perhaps they are being honest. Hard monogamy has been the practice for thousands of years; is it your contention that a good and godly practice was lost, and all Christian men have been unwittingly sinning, until very recently?

      "And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai."

      What was her reasoning for his taking Hagar?

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    13. Hard monogamy has been the practice for thousands of years; is it your contention that a good and godly practice was lost, and all Christian men have been unwittingly sinning, until very recently?

      I'm sorry, I'm not following.

      What was her reasoning for his taking Hagar?

      You can go ahead with where you're going on this. Anyone reading can follow along with the story in Genesis 16.

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    14. *reviews*

      It looks like I got the order of events reversed. My bad. What I had in mind was in Genesis 18.

      I'm sorry, I'm not following.

      Well, you're claiming that the church has been deliberately misleading men for two millennia and that marriages are unstable as a result. I'm trying to figure out if you think marriage has been damaged for that entire time as a direct and exclusive result, and that men and women have been led into sin.

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    15. No, that's not what I'm claiming. What I'm saying is the churches I have attended (Lutheran and non denominational) have not delivered a message of God's commands for wives in marriage. Many pastors will marry a wife for her second time without mention of what the Bible has to say about it.

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    16. If Abraham taking Hagar wasn't a sin, why did the judgment that God placed upon the act just blow up a bomb at the Boston Marathon last week?
      Seems to me that, 1. doubting God and, 2. listening to Sarah (as Adam listened to Eve when he shouldn't have) were rather sinful in God's eyes. Otherwise, he wouldn't have placed a judgment upon Abraham's future generations as a result of it.

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    17. Before I respond to that, ar, I'm going to expand on my comment above it. PS - if anyone knows how I can make this site more like AG where all the comments are streamlined, please let me know.

      When I was considering leaving RLB, he told me the truth of what the Bible had to say. Should I leave him and marry another man, it is sin. Though I was still in rebellion to all of God's commands for marriage, it still affected me greatly. It made me seek Truth. It made me cry out to God "What can I do then? I'm angry and frustrated and confused...how do I stay here? What can I do?"

      Obey. Repent of your rebellion. Read My words. Submit to your husband out of obedience to Me. - That was the answer I received.

      I want for every Christian married woman to know this. Because in obeying God, the anger went away, the frustration went away, the confusion went away.

      Okay, back to what you said, ar. I have no idea.

      Regardless of me having no idea. The spiritual authority in my life has not been convicted that polygamy is sinful for a man. His opinion is consistent with many other believers we respect. His opinion is consistent with other Christian scholars we respect to include Martin Luther and Saint Augustine.

      Delete
  9. ar10308,
    You really need to get over your issues with RLB, your sniping has become embarrassing for you.

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    1. I'm doing him a favor. I'm giving him a chance to get in line with Scripture and further clarify his thoughts by pointing out the weaknesses. I once went toe-to-toe with Cane Caldo in a Dalrock thread and the result was him creating his blog and contributing some very good content.

      Notice how I'm the only one even commenting here? The fact that so few others are even bothering to argue the points means they don't care. It means they have abandoned it.

      Delete
    2. You're a silly one.

      But you go on with your bad self.

      Delete
    3. If a MGTOW isn't engaged in sexual sin, the assertion that he us in some hidden sin has yet to be proven.

      Delete
    4. You beat your own meat. Is that explicit enough for you? Your sin is in coveting/lust and is why Paul recommended marriage to those without the gift he had of celibacy.

      I will not kowtow to a mealy mouthed man that has no fruit on his tree. I don't care that most MGTOWs flee from me. The Truth is scary.

      Delete
  10. I was under the impression that a Man Going His Own Way, was not looking to hit everything under the sun. May be my own mistake.

    My understanding: He's too beta, so being a player is not an option. 20 years ago, he would have married and had a family. Not possible today, because the only women he can get have a huge body count and/or bastard kid(s) in tow.

    Instead,
    1. He does what he wants. Whatever his hobbies are.
    2. He deliberately doesn't work to his potential. Doesn't mean he slacks at his job, it means he isn't looking for advancement. Why would he work hard just to pay taxes to raise someone else's kids?
    3. Women, at least the ones available to him, aren't worth the effort, so he doesn't make one. Perhaps he medicates his sex drive with porn. This is the only valid criticism you can make of him.

    This is distinct from the PUA. These guys are the ones fathering the bastards, and filing notches. You can blame them, but you have to blame the sluts equally.

    There is probably a continuum, from a PUA on one end to the poor omega on the other end.

    I will defend the ones on the involuntarily marriageless and celibate end. They would step up if they could. It isn't an option.

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    1. Yes, 3. is the problem. It affects his mental well being and prevents him from having the confidence he should have in his life.

      I will defend the ones on the involuntarily marriageless and celibate end. They would step up if they could. It isn't an option.

      sounds a lot like, women defending each other for being fat. They've tried to lose weight and just can't.

      Delete
    2. Yes, 3. is the problem. It affects his mental well being and prevents him from having the confidence he should have in his life.
      What is the problem? Porn? I agree, that is a problem from a Christian standpoint. It has no bearing on the fact that they can't get a woman with decent morals.

      sounds a lot like, women defending each other for being fat. They've tried to lose weight and just can't.

      Sure, but losing weight, while difficult, is ultimately under your own control. What the hell do the bottom 25% of men do when 25% of women slut it up with the bad boys? Just man up and marry a slut? I don't blame them if they say no thanks.

      You don't seem to realize that a large portion of the women aren't fit to marry because they are sluts. Promiscuous males aren't hurt because women don't care as much. They live the high life and then marry the decent girl that forgives their past. These are the men that you should decry.

      If a certain proportion of women are sluts, than a certain proportion of men can't (or won't) marry. Some choose to marry a ho, some choose to walk. It ain't a great thing for either one.

      This isn't about mens' character, it is just math.

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    3. The bottom 25% of men shouldn't be Christian. Until that changes, we have nothing to fear about polygamy. Alpha-type attitude is biblical. Confidence and leadership. Being confident is also under a man's control. These MGTOWs scurry for cover because they don't want to change the things about themselves that would be uncomfortable to do. They aren't attractive to women. They pretend they are doing their own thing to justify why they keep slapping the monkey.

      I have no interest in the PUAs. There are plenty of people decrying them from a Christian frame. Their bad thing does not make MGTOWs bad thing okay. MGTOW Christians need to be confronted with their sin. Unless they are living the monk lifestyle, their sexual desire is running their life.

      Ignoring the masturbation of these men is not healthy for them or for the long term prospects of Christianity. Once sexbots are available, these MGTOWs will have no need to care about women.

      Men need to lead, not whine. Ar is a whiner. I have never had a conversation with a MGTOW that wasn't whining about money and hurt feelings. A Paul type man doesn't whine about those things.

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    4. The bottom 25% of men shouldn't be Christian.

      Wait, hold on. What are you saying with this?

      Naturally ugly men shouldn't be Christian? Awkward men shouldn't be Christian? Men stuck in bad company shouldn't be Christian?

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    5. Okay, regarding all of your references to the horny, lesser, ugly, awkward, men and the assertion that an alpha who gets two women is taking one away from the poor gamma. We don't agree. I do not agree, in the least, that out of the millions of women who live in a 100 mile radius from AR that not one of them is a good woman. That's ludicrous and not even worth a discussion.

      The next post better clarifies what RLB is saying regarding the bottom 25% of men. Christian men should not find themselves in the bottom 25%.

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    6. I do not agree, in the least, that out of the millions of women who live in a 100 mile radius from AR that not one of them is a good woman. That's ludicrous and not even worth a discussion.

      ((SD, I understand where you're coming from, but I have to say that I have direct anecdotal evidence to the contrary. It can surely be the case that a man can live in that kind of situation and never MEET those few good women, simply because they move in different circles. And it's fine to say "Well, go to where those circles are," but you and I both know that nowadays, it's hard to filter through the white noise. There are so many fake Christians out there for so many reasons...

      ((It's not ludicrous. It seems unlikely to some folks, but it's true. I know it for a fact. Two months ago, I relieved a 33-year-old, demonstrably alpha man of his virginity, and it wasn't for want of seeking that he didn't find for all those years.))

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    7. I don't know his story, I certainly don't remember him bleating about being a MGTOW. Nor yammering on about how bad women are. He's spoken quite rationally with regards to human nature/women's nature.

      It isn't lost that you indeed were one (a good woman) and that he did find you.

      Delete
    8. ((Well, it took him longer than AR's been at it, which is why I'm glad AR hasn't quit, and why I have sympathy for his situation.

      ((LoA is a very unusual man, though. And thank you for the compliments, to which I say "Back atcha".))

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    9. Unusual? No way! ;)

      I am surprised to hear he's only 33. He's got an old guy way about him. Alas, the saying is correct, "with age comes wisdom? no - sometimes age comes all by itself." Meaning, obviously, youngins can be wise as well.

      I do have sympathy for AR's situation, a motherly "let's get to the bottom of this" concern. However, I have learned many many times over there are individuals in this world that can read millions of words on how to change their lot in life and there is just no connection being made. There is an excuse for everything of why any amount of advice just will not work for them. There's only so much one can tolerate of the "woe is me" attitude.

      RLB was a sales mentor. There are individuals out there that he's had to walk away from. He could not afford to invest anymore time into a man who will just not risk failure, who is frozen by fear. They were Christian men too. They'd keep him on the phone for hours and hours bemoaning their lot in life. Yet when RLB would give them something to read or tell them a success story they could relate to, it was as if they were disappointed to hear there could be hope. Self pity is a very insatiable condition.

      Delete
    10. I go to a small church because the only alternative is the Megachurch down the road. I can't stomach a place like that.

      I am involved in a social Swing Dance club. Through it, I approach a dozen new women every Friday evening.

      I do CrossFit.

      I am in a lot of circles. The reality is that I look around and see nothing but barren grounds for what I am looking for. And I know I'm not the only guy who sees the same thing, because I have friends who are older than myself that are in the same situation.

      You'd think a 32yo, 6'4", outgoing and confident guy who makes over $100,000 would be able to find a woman suitable to marry. Sure, my friend gets tons of attention from women, but none of them are remotely worth it. They all want to live the expensive-life and throw their kids in daycare as soon as they can so they can go back to work. And this guy has only had 1 serious GF since high school and may very well still be a virgin.
      I'm only 6'2" and don't make quite as much money (~$80k).

      So guess what? The problem isn't the men...

      Delete
    11. Sigyn is correct that the problem is search costs.

      Marriageable women are out there, even here in America. But they are few and far between, and spread out. Most tend to be snatched up (aka, married) right out of high school. Those few who make it past high school usually get married in or right out of college.

      Worse than the numbers game is the fact that there is no ideal place to find such women. Churches are not only no guarantee, but some of them seem to be worse than the general population. A man can search for years without finding one. And that assumes the man has what it takes to attract that woman in the first place.

      In my case, I'm pretty sure that I met one or two before. But that was in my blue pill days, when I didn't stand much of a chance of attracting them. Even if I did marry them, the blue pill might have poisoned the marriage and destroyed it. In a way I am grateful now; should I marry now, I have the means and the knowledge to preserve the marriage. This is on the reasons I'm not bitter; I know it could have been worse.

      Delete
  11. I agree with AR, and it is not simple sniping. RLB's posts are all over the place, filled with assumptions and contradictions, faux alpha posturing and verbal abuse flying off the page. Make no mistake (I expect RLB will make the mistake), I am far from whining about RLB. Im telling him he is drunk on the kool aide of churchianism and doesnt even know it, and his self created reality where he is alpha wolf is so thick with self deception he cannot even see that he makes no sense.

    To wit:

    A man going the way of Paul doesn't blame women, but looks at himself.

    You can drive a truck through the wiggle room this statement makes. Yes Paul DOES blame those who can be blamed. And yes he DOES set about changing everyone else, what the hell do you think evangelizing even IS? Its such a ridiculous notion to take women off the table as legitimate objects of male leadership seeking to correct. "Go and fix yourself" is reasonable coincident advice, but its epic fail if given as "in lieu of" advice.

    Women are moral agents. That are not blameless. RLB conflates MGTOW with PUA's as well as MGTOW with every sort of refusing to take responsibility for self. That there may be some of those is not the point. he is painting with so broad a brush, while shamelessly self promoting SOMETHING....something I cannot even figure out outside of edifying himself.


    This idea that giving up looking for a wife is sinful is silly. In any other avenue of pursuit, as Christians, and especially churchians, you hear the language of "well God just closed the door and I will move on" Why can that not be the case with not marrying? The bible clearly speaks to not being married as a choice. I just do not grasp the anger, the insults, the vitriol flying off these pages about a group of men that RLB has basically indicted by painting a straw man version of them that most of us would indict if we encountered one.

    If RLB would even nod subtly to the fact that he is painting with too broad a brush it would make this more palatable. But as you can readily see, that would be considered losing, and he WINS.....always.

    SD, you say Who's argument? That is not my argument. Nor is it RLB's.

    Then later you say But lets get real - does anyone really believe Christian MGTOWs don't masturbate?

    Yes.....it IS your argument, both of you. Its like both of you will say whatever you need to in an individual comment regardless if it contradicts other comments.

    It begs, why is this the hill you guys have chosen to die on anyway? Its a distraction, akin to the church chasing gay marriage and abortions (Im not challenging their position on these) while the women destroy more families than those two things and MGTOW all together do. CHILDREN left lacking 2 parents, generational social pathologies, all finding root common cause in destruction of familism, and RLB -and you-are wound up about MGTOW?

    Its a chucrhian distraction, its a safe rant, you will garner lots of support among churchians, no blow back. heck ranting on MGTOW is even socially safer than ranting on gay marriage. Taking the safe way....to victory.

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    1. You have managed to ruin a good a decent blog. You.

      This blog exists because of me and the way I think. Me.

      Have you figured out how to deal with the fact that you like hearing what SD has to say, but I am the reason she says it? How can you possibly reconcile my neanderthal ways with SD's decent blog?

      You can't handle the truth. My mentality is what makes a woman right. It's called leadership. The whining of men on female blogs along with their unwillingness to confront their own failings is the disgusting thing to me. Try talking to more Christian men with successful lives and less bitching about women on their sites.

      Delete
  12. Im telling him he is drunk on the kool aide of churchianism

    This coming from the same person who believes following 1 Peter 3:7 is Churchianity.

    http://sarahsdaughterblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/female-privilege-imperative-or-reality.html?showComment=1365945371406#c7948037933229863091

    If RLB's posts on MGTOW annoy you, don't read them. He writes for his son and his grandsons who he certainly doesn't want to follow any of the advice of the freak who claims MGTOW to be "his movement."

    Clearly we could care less whose support we garner.

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  13. Again whineing about the women who are whores, that most likely are not chasing you anyway, does nothing to help you and never will. It is work to attract a worthy mate. Even creation demonstrates this. The males fight for the best mates. They dont say forget it all these chicks are sluts anyway. Funny that the same guys have high standards for the mate the would consider but refuse to meet similar standards to attract her or even just move or meet new people. Coddling you isnt helping you.

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  14. Just discovered this blog; good luck to SD and RLB. But I also respect AR, re: MGTOW. If AR kept quiet, you wouldn't know why some find MGTOW a valid alternative!

    gdgm+

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    1. Unfortunately for the MGTOW movement, the more ar comments...well, lets just say it's not good.

      Just one of the messages I've received: "Good lord what a depressed, condescending, hopeless ass. No wonder he can't find a good woman."

      Delete
  15. "The sexual desires of men keep them from doing great things if not properly focused. It isn't a bug about men; it is a feature. This sexual desire can drive greatness in men. It makes husbands provide, protect, build cities, improve technologies, and invent a better mouse trap. If a man like Paul doesn't have this desire, it is considered a gift from God. He can think clearly without regular sexual release. The majority of men don't have this gift from God. The majority must satisfy this desire in one way or another. The only Christian manner to satisfy this desire is marriage."

    With the changing times more men are realizing that being lead around by their dick is not really a way to live. Read up on Japan's Herbivore men for example. The ones who do lead with their dicks tend to be the same ones who will become feral during chaotic times.

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  16. At age 30 I took on the task of helping my sister rear her two children from her first marriage and simultaneously offered our grandparents enough assistance to keep them in their home until they passed (less than three weeks apart.) By then I was 45. I was hospitalized and diagnosed with severe bi-polar depression. Hopsitalizations for mania and depression ensued for 15 years. Now at age 60 I have been diagnosed with Acute Mylogenous Leukemia.

    My life has been spent in service to others. If I had married before age 30 two children would have been without a father figure. As it turned out, both are married with children of their own. The last 15 years of my grandparents lives were enjoyable and happy for them because I was there to balance their checkbooks, and tote their barges and lift their bales. And now, I find myself on SSDI. I have always done what I felt God would have me do. Never had the chance to marry. Am I bitter? No. Through all my life I have had a healthy sex drive, with only one available outlet. So I guess that makes me a sinner? I wouldn't change a thing. I can honestly say the world was a better place because I was here. If tugging my talleywhacker to keep my sanity is really a sin, I should have put finding a wife above the needs of family and the future of two youg children and let two elderly people rot in a nursing home, unable to sleep in a double bed for the last 15 years of their marriage. Sometimes celibacy is what life hands you, even if you were not cut out for it.

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  17. What if a man genuinely finds the idea of romance boring and a waste of time?

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