Thursday, January 17, 2013

Amazing Grace

There's a story I remembered about young elephants in Africa forming gangs with each other after their adult elephants had been killed. When looking for it I found this: Elephants Teach Socialization
They didn't have their parents or their elders there to keep them in line or teach them how to behave as they should. And don't forget, these elephants had been traumatized as babies. They had witnessed the violent and defensive actions of their parents and other adults of the herd trying to protect the younger ones and being killed by humans! The trauma and anger that they experienced then had carried over into their adolescence. Left on their own with no adult supervision or family attention, they, in a sense, became embittered and frustrated and took those feelings out on others. Like real gangs, they took their aggressions out on smaller, weaker animals, destroyed things, and caused trouble.
The first time I heard this story I thought immediately about my own life and association after my mother's second divorce.

Of all places, my naughtiness started at church camp the summer before I entered seventh grade. A group of us kids decided to sneak out of the dorm rooms and meet up by the tennis courts. Two older girls were smoking cigarettes and offered me one. I was eleven and I liked it. I liked the cigarette and I really liked the new bond I was forming with these older girls as they laughed and taught me how to smoke.

I had been a latch key kid from a very young age. I can remember being home alone at age six in the care of my nine-year-old sister. So it was nothing new for me to be home alone at age eleven. My mother was a smoker. She smoked long menthol cigarettes but would only smoke half of them. The rest she would leave in ashtrays. So I smoked the other half while she was gone.

I started seventh grade and very quickly formed friendships with other naughty girls and boys. They had divorced parents as well and were either living with single mothers or with their mother and a step father. Our pack of young elephants was large. My closest friend in the pack had been naughty a bit longer than I had. At their elementary school, fourth graders were already kissing boys. I had never kissed a boy but it wasn't long before I was "going with" one of the boys in our pack. This group of kids all lived in the same neighborhood. It was very common for me to sleep over at my friend's house on the weekends so we could hang out with the group. We'd hang out on the playground of the nearby elementary school and smoke our cigarettes. It didn't take long before I was kissing the boy I was going with.

Boyfriend and girlfriend relationships in middle school often didn't last but two weeks. It starts with a note, "Will you go with me?" and ends the same way, "I don't want to go with you anymore." Outside of this boy crazy social life, I had excellent grades and played in sports. School was very easy for me. What was difficult was the boundaries of normal boy/girl relationships. What comes next after kissing and holding hands? I know I shouldn't "go all the way" with him but how far is too far?

The group of kids I hung out with changed slightly here and there, but one thing remained consistent. We all had a lot of time on our hands with no adult supervision. We'd meet up in the park or at the mall and smoke, listen to heavy metal music, make out, fight and some smoked pot. I met an even naughtier girl than I was and was attracted to her like a moth to a flame. She knew people in high school where her older brother was. She taught me how to shop lift and go even further into this crazy naughty world.

The best times to get in trouble is when your single parent decides they need some time away. They travel out of town and leave you home alone. My mother did just this, a lot. This particular time, however, she allowed me to spend the weekend at my new, naughtier friend's house. Little did my mom know, her mom was out of town as well.

Before I go on, understand, I was still going to church on Sunday, Catechism class on Wednesday nights, church camp during the summer, and even with my new naughty friend, we spent the night at a church lock in. I was very aware of how much I was lying to my mother and hiding my bad behavior from her. I prayed every night and never denied that I was a Christian. I even wore a huge cross on a chain around my neck. It was a trendy thing to do back then, along with our big hair, crazy makeup, and brand name clothes.

This friend's brother, I would find out later, had asked her to have me sleep over. He and his buddies were having a party at a hunting shack and were going to bring us to it. While it's disgusting for me to think about while I write this, I remember being scared and exhilarated at the same time as the twelve-year-old I was then. We drank, smoked, smoked pot, and listened to heavy metal music. Some kids passed out, some threw up, and others paired off to go have sex. What would no longer ever be a beautiful gift preserved for my husband, was given that night to this friend's brother.

The next day as we hung out at their house, he was mortified to find out how young I was. Going by my looks alone, he thought I was sixteen. "Don't worry, I won't tell."

That night my friend and I got caught shoplifting. Since no parent of either of ours was to be found, we were let go into the custody of her eighteen-year-old brother. He wasn't interested in sex with me that night, he was angry. He pinned me to the floor and punched me repeatedly in the ribs between my breasts. I didn't understand. When I got away, I ran to my friend's bedroom and kept myself away from him there until I was able to go home the next day.

A couple months after this my mother's job was relocated. She was also beginning her five year battle with breast cancer. If she wanted to keep her job and her insurance, she would have to move us away from our childhood home to a new city. We did just that. It didn't take long for me to match up with a new pack of young elephants. Same behaviors, same naughtiness, more boys and more sex in disgusting places. When my mother would find out about something I'd done wrong, she'd ground me. That didn't matter in the least. She was spending a lot of time at her boyfriend's house so I was left alone to do whatever anyway. When she was home for the evening, I locked my bedroom door and went out the window. I had to meet up with my pack, there was naughtiness to be done.

And still, I received great grades, was in an advanced math course that I had to travel to the high school to do. And I found a new church that I walked to alone on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings.

After one summer night of having stayed out all night, my mom had enough of not being able to control me. She bought some luggage and put it on my bed. When I came home I asked, "what is this?" She said, "You're out of here, bitch!" And off I went on a Greyhound bus, at the age of thirteen, to go live with my dad and his girlfriend.

I wish I could say that changed everything. It didn't. I found packs of young elephants very quickly. I found a new church to walk to alone on Sundays, but didn't go to it long. For the first time I was scorned by the members. I didn't fit in and was told as much. I wouldn't return to a church again until my wedding day.

Same story, different location. I started working my first job and had a bus pass. I had my own money and freedom to do whatever I wished. And I continued down a path of horrible decisions mixed in with straight A's in school and some sports. I started thinking of my future when I was fourteen and decided I'd follow my passion for jets and flight. I joined Civil Air Patrol, a civilian auxiliary of the USAF. 

My mother had since relocated to our hometown so I went to visit her and my old friends. Another fresh start was ahead. She allowed me to move back in with her. Fresh start be damned, I was still the same mess of a girl only back with my original group of friends. Same behaviors, same short relationships with boys who I freely gave sex to. I worked, had my own money, fought with my mother and moved out again, this time with my sister, at age sixteen. I considered emancipation at this point but as my mother got more and more sick, she allowed me to move back in with her and live my life without concern of her approval. I took care of our apartment when she spent a month at a time in the hospital undergoing massive chemotherapy treatments.

My mother died two weeks before I graduated high school. I had excellent grades, still, scored very high on the ACT and was accepted at our state university. My teachers told me my grades stand as is and I'd graduate with no problems. At seventeen I was on my own, completely.

My sexual behavior did not change. By the time I met RLB, I had had sex with 80 boys/men. Not once did I lie to RLB about any of this. I knew I wanted to marry him and I knew that he needed to know the truth about me.

I'm very well aware of all the names I should be called. I was the first to call myself them. I understand the anger, disgust, and judgement. This is revolting, I know. RLB and I are willing to answer any questions you may have. I have shared this, once again, so future generations understand completely who I was. Hiding it or simply not talking about it renders it ineffective to help others. There are many facets to this essay. One obviously being a pretty bad scenario that could be a reality for your children should you divorce and choose not to parent. The other is to analyze my decision making to better understand my fallen nature and perhaps other females' nature. The other is everything else I've already written and to accept that He "saved a wretch like me". 

26 comments:

  1. I've found your blog off of alphagameplan... I really appreciate what you guys are trying to do here. Keep up the effort!! God uses those times we wonder in the desert of sin for His glory and our eventual good.

    ...how sweet the sound...

    jf

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  2. I ran with those groups too. Ended up with some tough stories and rough edges.

    God has been faithful nonetheless.

    =)

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  3. If you could think back, do you think there is anything any of the churches you were involved with could have done to help? obviously this trend has not changed for the better. any suggestions on ways to reach out to these kids?

    jf

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  4. Jf,
    With the exception of the last church I went to, I believe the church did as best as could be done. The 2nd one I mentioned had a very good pastor who talked with me often. I gave him some poetry I had written and he had it published in the bulletin. The congregants were kind and welcoming to me. Just that foundation of having been raised up hearing the Gospel brought me through incredibly lonely times. It also kept me from going down much more disastrous paths (harsh drugs, working in a strip club - as a couple of girls I knew did).

    I was being led down a spiritualistic path briefly by my step mother - psychics, ouija boards, etc. But it didn't stick, I knew too much of the Bible and knew that though these things are possible, they're not good.

    I'm really not sure what more a church can do in a situation like mine. I don't know how my parents would have responded if anyone would have addressed concern for me with them. Between my mother, father, and step mother, there was enough pain, regret, and guilt going around. For me, I did my best to try to be invisible and press on. I survived, didn't ever get pregnant, and was blessed to have RLB marry me. I praise God for his protection and guidance, it could have been much worse. So, the impact the churches had on me and my faith was certainly substantial.

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  5. This was brave, well done. A couple of questions if you are willing.
    1. How did you become a Christian? It's interesting that you were walking to church alone. Were your parents not believers?
    2. How old were you when you and RLB got married?
    3. You might not want to answer this, but I'll ask anyway. How did your past affect your marriage and what did you do to mitigate that, if anything?

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  6. Thanks ssm.
    1. I became a Christian by growing up in the church. By learning and repeating the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed. I don't have a memory of not knowing Jesus Christ is my Savior. There is no doubt in my mind that for as long as I have been of the age of accountability, I have been saved. I have recommitted and renewed my relationship with God by publicly professing my faith and joining with other new believers in the sinner's prayer (this was a couple years after RLB and I were married).

    My mother was a believer. She was an emotional wreck anytime she came into the church (Christmas program, Easter etc.) so she avoided it. She did not experience the blessings God has to offer for those who abide in Him. Her life was painful from beginning to end. I found a letter she had written to my step father that talked of her father molesting her. She lived life with obstinate and irrational behavior and was excused for it because she had been through so much. I believe she had reached the point where she couldn't handle much more and God took her home.

    My father was raised in the church. His mother made sure of that. I wrote about her and my grandfather in my post titled "Choosing Esther." I don't know of his faith today. I pray for him a lot. Christianity was just not a topic of discussion in my home (among MANY other things that were just not discussed). He told me my step mother laughs out loud and says "oh, you gotta hear this" when reading my blog. It is my hope that this might get so offensive to him that he may come to understand the truth. I'd be very sad to know that he also laughs at my faith and submission. And it is my hope that he doesn't allow her to slander me or gossip about me.

    2. In "How he got the girl" I explain how RLB and I met. I was 19 the September night I met him and 20 in June when we married.
    http://sarahsdaughterblog.blogspot.com/2012/12/how-he-got-girl.html

    3. RLB was most concerned about the divorces in my background than he was of my promiscuous behavior. Rightfully so. When things got tough that first year I would call my sister and tell her how I couldn't handle it. RLB was raised right. He took the phone from me, hung it up, and told me the back door is locked. I had a lot of crazy, insecure, irrational behavior that he dealt with consistently with a very firm hand. He didn't allow it. I've mentioned before that his natural socio sexual rank is Delta, however, he has always been very committed to his leadership role in our family. He has never put up with my crap. My rebellion frustrated him and three years ago he was done having it even be an issue. (See my post, "A Love Story")

    We had been married three years when he read something in a book about standing in the stead of the men who had hurt me and who I had hurt. He woke me up in the middle of the night and told me we had to talk. And one by one we discussed every single person I had sex with. He asked for my forgiveness for them and he received my request for forgiveness. He forgave it all and we prayed for Christ's redemption.

    When he gets the chance, I'll ask RLB if he'll add to this.

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    1. Thanks for your reply. I've never heard about the concept of "standing in the stead". What a great process!

      You were quite young when you married. Do you think that helped make the transition from promiscuous to monogamous easier? I see from RLB's reply that loss of attraction has not been an issue, which is I think one of the main concerns I see in the manosphere with regards to marrying women who are not virgins.

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    2. My age might have had something to do with it. I relate to what the manosphere has to say of riding the carousal and deciding to jump off - to an extent. I wanted a faithful, monogamous relationship. I would look for potential in the guys I would date. Where I went wrong was in sexual availability. It's weird to say it but it didn't make sense for me to turn a guy down since I had already been with so many other guys. I wasn't a nymphomaniac. I honestly was looking for someone who would see more to value in me than just the sex (that sounds dumb doesn't it, "simple SD, stop putting out"...but then that gets back to the thought I'd have of "why would I deny this guy when I didn't deny the others.")

      RLB was the first guy I wanted to marry immediately. I had never met anyone like him. I was crazy attracted to him. I was a creeper too, man, he'd be laying in bed and I would stare at him and just get giddy that I was in this relationship and it was going so well. I was so afraid of losing it. I was so jealous and insecure when we started out. My mind literally couldn't process any normal life functions much less the thought of not being monogamous. That was just ludicrous to me. All of my thoughts and actions were about RLB. I laughed (and still do laugh) at the thought of having fond recollections or fantasies of previous relationships/hook ups. Not one man, not even close, holds a candle to the man God gave me. Never did. The thought is revolting to me. So, what Deti had to say on your post is quite accurate. A relationship with a promiscuous woman is made most possible if she has a very strong attraction to the man.

      We've seen a few of the guys I've dated in the past here and there and everyone of them has talked with RLB directly and shown him great respect.

      I'm going to try and figure out what book that was from. We have read so many. I need to clean off the book shelf anyway, we own several Fireproofish books. Bleh. I can't guarantee the book he was reading wasn't a "supplicate to your wife" style of book. It was a moment of bonding that I would not suggest for a man unless he can carry a strong Alpha frame. It's a very intimate thing to do but has to be done in a manner that isn't mamsy pamsyish...does that makes sense?

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    3. I would tend to agree with you that past promiscuity is less damaging (if repentance occurs, of course) if the woman marries the most dominant/attractive (to her) man that she was with. Although my promiscuity never got seriously out of hand, I was not a blushing virgin upon meeting HHG, yet we have not had the "loss of attraction" issue either. I think it's a valid concern, though, because how many women will be as fortunate as you and I were? So I think the men are right to prefer women whose N is low or 0.

      And, when there is a true repentance, I am a believer in the power of prayerful supplications to heal and mitigate the worst of the fallout for past sin. Several commenters strongly disagreed with me on that point yesterday on my site, but I stand by that belief. I don't mean that as a "get out of jail free" card, either. But the commenters did not believe that a formerly promiscuous woman who has lost (or did not have) attraction for her husband could ever hope to get it/get it back. Maybe that's so, but I'm not convinced of it. That's one reason I'm interested to hear how you and RLB prayed together, and how healing that was.

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    4. I apologize for not leaving this on your blog. I saw some other commenters say close to what I'm going to say so I left it at that. I know you were talking of a hypothetical promiscuous woman who was not attracted to her husband and that may be enough of a distinction to justify this bit you wrote:

      "You need to go beyond normal obedience and submission that is shown by women who were not spreading their legs for a string of hookups in college."

      Is this truly what you believe? That there are different levels of sin and what is required by the sinner in order to be forgiven? And if so, how is that determined? How would a woman with three past sexual partners differ in what she needs to do to be redeemed than a woman with 20?

      What heals is the heart. A defiant sinful heart is a defiant sinful heart. It mocks Jesus' suffering and final atonement for sins should we declare that partial suffering was needed for this lesser sinner, the full weight of his sacrifice needed for a greater sinner.

      RLB has never required atonement for my past promiscuous behavior beyond my confession of it to him. He then chose to forgive me it and marry me and love (Agape) as God commanded. In that Agape, he does not allow me to persecute myself for what has been redeemed by Christ. Nor does he persecute me with unforgiveness for it.

      Would Christ require more than one prayer from a man on his death bed who just accepted the gift of salvation? Would there not be enough time for him to be redeemed?

      My heart is known by my Savior. It was enough for Him that I confessed my sin and asked that he forgive me. That I am repentant. His redemption has been received and never taken for granted. I humbly proceed as a repentant sinner, searching my heart for more to be purified. He knows the peace in my heart I have and the desire I have to use my story as a testimony to His Grace.

      Special obedience or submission is not required from me compared to any other woman. There are no levels to biblical submission. The command either is or isn't obeyed.

      To call it a get out of jail free card is again to mock the Cross. No human can judge another's heart or whether they are repentant of their sins.

      How we prayed was simple. "Please forgive me."

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    5. SD, thanks for continuing to discus this. However, you have perhaps misunderstood my post and are taking it personally when it does not seem to apply to your situation. This post had nothing to do with forgiveness after the first paragraph in which I recommended that the woman become a Christian by accepting Jesus' forgiveness.

      The rest of the post are things to do in an attempt to recalibrate her attraction for her husband. She is sexually aroused by men more dominant than him. He has the option to try to up his frame; she has the option to try radically submitting her frame. The goal is for her hypergamous drive to be satisfied by his relative dominance to her.

      It's a rough deal all around for them, and this is not sure to work, but adding prayer for God to remove the temporal consequences (and I was clear that these were the earthly and not eternal consequences) can only help, if for no reason other than to align their wills with His. I said nothing about special levels of forgiveness or spiritual atonement. That was not the subject of my post.

      I am really happy that this post does not apply to you. You are blessed to have married young to a good man who satisfies your innate hypergamy. But understand that your situation is unique. There are large numbers of people in sexless marriages. I hear from men like this not infrequently on my blog. If a woman is in that situation and wants to honor her marriage vows, she's going to have to try to do something about her lack of attraction for her husband. These were my suggestions for her.

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    6. This makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. I had initially mentioned the distinction that this advice of yours was for a hypothetical woman who is not attracted to her husband. I enjoyed your post and thought it excellent advice, but yes, was given pause by that the line I quoted. Thanks again ssm!

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  7. SSM, I know there is a lot of focus on virginity out there today in the manosphere. I got my heart ripped out by a virgin when I was 20. So, I wasn't exactly looking for a virgin anymore. I wouldn't have turned one away. I just didn't have the obsession with it that I see so prevalent today. We had to have several uncomfortable talks, but sex has never been a problem in our marriage. SD has always wanted to have sex with me. She has never denied me or not seemed interested. Skype was even helpful while I've been deployed. So were several "movies" we made before I left. Yeah, I know people have this whole anti-masturbation issue going on. Judge away. I can take it.

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  8. What an amazing, honest, blog! I found your blog through Always learning, and I am hooked. I love your honesty and your commitment to Jesus. Consider me a regular.

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  9. I commend your honesty. It's refreshing.

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  10. In retrospect, do you think there was a 'hole' you were trying to fill during your promiscuous years? In other words, were you substituting sex for something else? Love or acceptance perhaps?

    I am a man, and I had over 100 sexual partners before I was married. Like you, I am from a broken home, and I have spent many years reflecting on why I exerted so little control over my sexual impulses in my younger years.

    I'm older now, and God has blessed me with a loving wife and 2 precious children, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that I struggle DAILY with the temptation of sexual attraction to women who aren't my wife. I've come to accept it as the way my life will be, but I would rather not have to live with it if I had the choice.

    To confound the issue, my wife has put on a considerable amount of weight since our children were born, and she does not appear to share your sentiments about remaining in shape (*sigh*). Still, I love her as a person, and I do make love to her frequently, which helps somewhat. She never denies me, but she never seems to initiate either unless I take the lead. I (very) casually loaded one of your blog entries one day and asked her what she thought of it, and she said it sounded "a little heavy-handed", so I unfortunately don't think I could get her to be a regular reader.

    Anyway, enough about me. I have enjoyed reading your blog. The sentiments expressed here are rare indeed in today's society.

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  11. "In retrospect, do you think there was a 'hole' you were trying to fill during your promiscuous years? In other words, were you substituting sex for something else? Love or acceptance perhaps?" - Anon

    Let me preface this by saying I hold no unforgiveness towards my parents.

    "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Mark 11:26

    I spoke this to my father many years ago. That I have completely forgiven him. I pray for him to release his guilt and seek forgiveness - and for him to forgive me.

    As a twelve year old girl with no parental supervision, with the association I had, I didn't stand a chance. The groups of friends I was most comfortable with all had the same story and we bonded intimately together as the baby elephants I described in a post earlier. We were terrible at making decisions. It was the path of least resistance in the lives of hormonal teenagers. It's statistical and something parents need to be well aware of. If you aren't paying attention to your children and they have freedom to do wrong without having values instilled into them by you, they WILL do bad things. A twelve year old can not be solely responsible for their life, even if they attend church on Sundays and especially if parents don't confirm Christian morals with their children.

    As time moved on, I was looking for a family. If I ended one of these short relationships it was because I found him more broken than me. I didn't date guys with messed up families long. One guy cried when I broke up with him after a week. Completely confirming that there was no way I could handle a relationship with a needy guy.

    The longest relationship I had prior to RLB had mostly to do with his family. Even though our relationship was on again off again (we fought a lot), the draw for me to go back to him was his mom and dad. They took care of me when my mother was dying. They fed me dinner every night and many nights allowed me to stay over in the guest room. His dad was a very strict man and didn't parse words. Exactly what I needed.

    Looking for a family wasn't always the case. I became more and more cynical and rebellious to God. At my lowest point I was just riding the carousal, taking whatever I wanted, when I wanted it. It wasn't about a hole anymore, it was separation from God and a tryst with the devil. I laughed at rebuke and arrogantly scoffed at anyone who thought life was meant to be lived without indulgence.

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    1. The guy I had the long relationship with was going to be moving in with me at this point (we were living four hours apart at the time). I knew I wouldn't be able to carry on my bar hopping, carousal riding ways. And, I knew I couldn't be married to him. We had cheated on each other, he had a girlfriend back home who later became his wife (and then ex-wife) and I knew it wouldn't work out well for us. I broke up with him and came clean to him about who I had been while we were apart. One month later I met RLB.

      I'll be writing a post about my "heavy-handedness" soon. She's right, I am. If you've read "Your Personality Tree" by Florence Littauer, you've probably already guessed, I'm a Choleric. 100% - not even one trait from the other three personalities.

      As a Choleric I receive correction best when it is my face, no holds barred. It will come as no surprise that my Meyers-Briggs is ESFJ. What I lacked in my childhood was a very stern hand. What I needed was to have my ass kicked from here to next week from someone with moral authority and dominance. I didn't have that from my single mom.

      Anyway, it's not surprising to me that my blog is a bit too much for more delicate personalities. Either that or they respond to it the way I responded to Vox Popoli when I first read it - with complete indignation but I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I hated it! And, I needed it. It is perfect for the Choleric ESFJ woman.

      So I write in the manner in which I need to receive correction. I don't read blogs or books that aren't "heavy handed."

      Anon, I appreciate your comment. I know you're not alone. There are many men in this blog world that can help you with the struggles you are having. Including the testimony of RLB fulfilling God's command to love - AGAPE his wife. It has nothing to do with feelings. RLB is very aware of my choleric personality and how I need to receive rebuke. I hope you are able to do the same for your wife.

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    2. I would like to add that I had a distinctly different reaction to SD telling me about her upbringing as it related to her promiscuity than I would have had if she started carousel riding at eighteen. Right or wrong, it made a difference to me that she ended up in the situation she did because it started as a result of poor parenting. I was convinced that she desired family life, but she didn't know how to obtain it.

      The family divorces scared me much more. The lack of examples in her life of successfully married people was an issue early on in our marriage. However, she sought and clung to my family's example of long term marriage. Even when she was mad as hell, she didn't want to lose that dream of having a Christmas table filled with children and grandchildren. She had that vision before we were married.

      As it relates to getting your wife to submit, it isn't an easy process. Everything in her life tells her to feed the irrational hamster in her mind. You have to love her so much you are ready to let her go. I'm sure it isn't a new concept. It's scary to confront, especially with children. However, if you are praying and getting the guidance from the Holy Spirit to make tough choices, you will make a difference in her decisions. She might leave you. She might not. But, you will know you did the right thing.

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  12. Thanks to you both for the dialogue and insights.

    SD, do you have any suggestions about broaching the subject of working out with my wife? She is not a punitive or hot-tempered woman, so I don't have to 'tiptoe' around the issue. But I'm looking for a way to talk to her about it that has the best chance of success, and won't kill her motivation. She is a good woman with an easygoing personality, but not necessarily a self-starter without prompting.

    Ben, your last paragraph is a tall order, but I do see the wisdom in it. I was wise (or fortunate!) enough to marry a woman that is much more calm and rational than the women in my family, so talking to her is not problematic. However, the concept of submission, as I understand it, does seem to be absolute. In other words, there is no 'grey area' or 'wiggle room' in it. Reaching that standard will likely require an effort that takes time and tenacity.

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  13. Anon,
    Tell her to. Say, "Don't make plans for (whatever time), we're going to the gym."
    If she asks why, or asks if you are unhappy with the weight she has, tell her (some of Vox Day's advice here) "I don't find excess cellulite attractive on anyone. It is important to me that you are in good shape and keep your appearance in a way that pleases me." (Don't fall for shit tests here, she needs to know the truth, that you desire her to be more sexually attractive to you.)

    This will open up doors for great discussions to be had. Should she balk at it, you will understand clearly where she is in her obedience to God's command to submit to you.

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  14. Your story is heartbreaking...

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  15. This is so amazing and wonderful Sarah's Daughter. What a beautiful testimony.

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  16. My names Daniel. I've wanted to express my disagreement with your views posted in 2013 regarding MGTOW. To me it's very simple. As a MGTOW myself understand why men refuse to marry. To call us losers is over-simplistic. It lumps all our valid experiences and our subsequent decision to remain single into the reject basket. Then the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater.

    For example, I'm divorced but my ex wife and I separated amicably. Our assets were split fairly and there was no bitterness. Yet I'll never marry again and I'm a Christian so that means celibacy.

    There are many different MGTOWS out there and you seem to assume they are all really desperate for a partner and incapable of attracting women. This isn't MGTOW.

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