Wednesday, January 30, 2013

Reject your inner bitch, princess, but be honest...please

During my Junior year of high school I had a crush on a guy who, to say the least, was out of my league. We had a choir class together. He played the guitar and was accompanying me and a friend on a duet for the talent show that I would later chicken out from doing. His dad was a surgeon and they lived in the richest part of town. I was living with my single mom in an apartment on the busiest street in town. Though it was a long shot, one night I worked up the nerve to call him. I hung up the phone several times after dialing just a couple of numbers. My stomach was in knots. But finally I dialed all seven numbers and it started ringing, no turning back now.

He was very polite. I didn't think he would know my name so I reminded him who I was. Then I asked if he'd like to go out sometime. His response was a very kind, "Oh, thank you, but no, I'm interested in dating somebody else." And that was it. He didn't go to school and laugh with his buddies, he wasn't rude to me, nothing. No one ever knew that I had been shot down by him. And the girl he was interested in...there was no wonder why. I ended up working with her for a bit after high school. She is beautiful, feminine, and a sweetheart - a good girl, raised right. 

Contrast that with RLB's story of being shot down. In seventh grade, he worked up the nerve to write a girl a note asking if she'd be his girlfriend. Not only did she laugh, she took this note and showed all the girls in the class, laughing and snickering at how funny it was he even dared to think she would go out with him. It mortified him and made him scared to ever ask another girl out. Girls are cruel, evil, bitches. (She's friends with him on facebook and when he tells me something funny or interesting she's posted, he still caveats it (almost 30 years later) with, "she's the one who embarrassed me with my note in seventh grade.")

Having a teenage son, I'm sensitive to this issue. He is a current student of game and is reflective of his natural Delta qualities. He has been friend zoned already by girls he finds attractive and has been prone to oneities. His first girlfriend was just mean to him. If they were texting each other and he wanted to stop to watch a movie with us she would flip out on him and text, "I HATE YOU." The first time he took it to heart until we explained to him what a shit test was. RLB then told him the response he needed to have: ignore her and when she talks to you next in school tell her you're not putting up with her crap, that she'll either stop this behavior or it's over with.

We work with our daughters about their natural tendency to be rude and mean to boys who they don't find attractive. The perfect example is naturally their brother. As is normal, they are in that stage where their older brother isn't cool yet, he's icky. If their friends make mention of how cute he is they say, "ewww." Which is amusing since our older daughter could pass as his twin sister. As pretty as she is, he is handsome. But of course, they don't see that. So we correct their behavior. We talk to them about how to treat people. That haughtiness, snobbishness, and natural bitchy tendencies are wrong. They need to pray and ask God to help them see people with a kind heart and treat them with empathy. No one deserves to have their spirit broken by their words and behaviors.

So how should a girl react when a boy they're not attracted to asks them out? Right now our daughters have a very truthful response: "No, my father won't be allowing me to date until I am sixteen." (This includes texting). 

Sunshine Mary was very gracious in allowing me to derail the comment thread of her post yesterday. (It's an excellent post highlighting the poison that is being spewed by feminists encouraging girls to embrace their inner slut and of course a healthy dose of men bashing.) An anonymous commenter said this that sparked the tangent I went down:
As long as the rejection is as polite as the approach, no problem. Conversely, a rude, crude, harassing approach is rightly dismissed abruptly and without niceties. (That said, some women define “harassment” to include approaches that they would welcome from handsomer, higher status men; this is unfair
But all too often, a polite approach by a man, is met with scorn, mockery, and even public humiliation from the woman — what the manosphere calls a “nuclear rejection”. Lots of good guys get it, ESPECIALLY in church from “Christian” women whom they politely, honorably asked out. WTF?
To which I asked for examples of non nuclear rejections. The responses have been fantastic so please go read through them. This is an important topic that you single ladies need to consider and you parents need to discuss with your daughters. Even married ladies. There's no reason to turn down a sincere approach by a man who doesn't realize you're married with indignant disdain. There's no need to flip your ring in his face and give him an eye roll, "uh no, you idiot, I'm married!" A pleasant "No thank you, I'm married and not interested" is fine. If you get the impression that doesn't matter to him and he'll continue to persist you can tell him that you take your vows seriously. Your behavior is very important. Your behavior needs to back up what you are saying (act as though you take your vows seriously). There's a way to carry yourself as a married woman even when your husband is not present. Perhaps I'll get into that in a future post.

Here are some snippets from the men who were kind enough to answer honestly with advice and examples of the best way to turn down a guy:

-Give a clear "no" upfront and respond honestly
-Men who have little or no sexual experience, usually CAN. NOT. READ women’s subtle signals. You must, must, must be BLUNT about your non-interest… or, your interest. Polite, but blunt.
 -Very firm and curt. Not rude, per se. But very, very emphatic. You can add “thank you” just to be polite
-Those who “can’t read signals” tend to read a lot of things into a nice but ambiguous rejection.
-If you reject him, but then hang out with him…. that’s a cruel mixed signal.
-You can’t avoid bruising his ego by pretending that’s not what you’re doing. What you can do is treat him as if he knows the score. Give him the opportunity to take a rejection from an equal, not a patronizing pat on the head. “I’m sorry, I’m not attracted to you. (magic words forthcoming) You know how it is.
-True Omegas won’t get the hint without blunt force rejection. No cruelty need (you don’t need to insult their attributes), but a very, very firm “no” and, likely, a removal of that social circle from your life.
-Words must be reinforced by action.

-No thanks, I’m flattered but I’m interested in someone else.
-Let me get back to you. (later) I prayed about it, and I don’t think I should date you
-You’re a decent guy but honestly, our lives are on different ministry paths, I don’t think we should date.
-I don’t want to come across as mean, you’re a decent guy, but, I’m just not interested in dating you.
-I’m not even sure, before the Lord, that I’m supposed to marry, so I don’t really have any business dating til I sort that out.
-An “I’m not feeling it” sort of message
-“I appreciate the thoughts, but I am not attracted to you. You can’t win my attraction no matter how much you try. I hope we both find people in the future, God willing, but there is no relationship potential for us.” A little long, but it’d work.

Thank you so much to all of the commenters that contributed toward this list and the ongoing discussion that is happening at The Woman and the Dragon.

Common knowledge among men, who aren't Gammas, is that there is no such thing as a platonic relationship between men and women. Billy Crystal explains it beautifully in When Harry Met Sally:

So ladies, don't think you're doing men any favors by the "let's just be friends" (LJBF) rejection.


  1. -I’m not even sure, before the Lord, that I’m supposed to marry, so I don’t really have any business dating til I sort that out.

    And then he'll say, "I'm happy to wait until you get it sorted out". And then he'll ask you every time he can screw up the nerve.

    But this is an important message. My brother lost his job because he sent a note to a co-worker asking her to coffee. That makes me extremely angry knowing him, and how much it took for him to put that small invitation out, and then get the thermo-nuclear rejection.

  2. A good reminder to be polite, it is a little weird when random strangers get a bit too friendly with me, especially since I married!

    I don't think #2 on the examples is a good one at all. You should know right away whether a guy is courtship material for you or not, I think it's rude to leave him hanging, and then come back with a sissy excuse like "I prayed about it." You should be praying about your courtship before, during, and after - no need to say "maybe, I have to think about it" just to shoot him down (after how many days of his suspense?). Either say no right away or agree to go get coffee somewhere to talk. If you're not sure about him, he deserves a chance with you IN PERSON as a reward for his showing the courage to ask you out in the first place! Especially since if you aren't sure about it, you don't know him well enough to make an informed decision. The only time I see this working is if you say "I prayed about it, and I don't believe I'm mature enough to be a good wife for anyone yet, so I don't want to start dating anyone right now."

    1. As Anon says over at SSM's place, that was a rejection he was actually told. I really like what you've suggested here.

    2. don't think #2 on the examples is a good one at all. You should know right away whether a guy is courtship material for you or not, I think it's rude to leave him hanging, and then come back with a sissy excuse like "I prayed about it." "

      Well... the look on her face when I asked her out, was one of shock and revulsion. [FWIW that was NOT the reaction I expected; I had no idea I was so negatively viewed by someone that I went to church with and knew fairly well.] A lesser woman, feeling similar revulsion, might well have nuclear rejected me, and even if she'd politely said no, the expression on her face was almost a nuclear rejection in and of itself.

      HOWEVER... she was of strong enough faith amd open minded enough, to go pray about it, JUST IN CASE the Lord would have her with someone that she clearly, in the natural realm, could not bear the thought of. Her whole family was like that: strong prayer warrior types. I'm sure she really did pray, it wasn't a sissy escuse.

      As I said, I didn't expect her revulsion. I don't get why she was so disguzted. I'm not a bad guy, and we'd been in the same church long enough that she should have known that. Yet at some level she was DEEPLY repulsed at the idea of dating me... YET SHE WASN'T MEAN. I honor her for that.

  3. Men get to risk rejection. A little graciousness would be appreciated.

    As one of those gamma men, i had NO idea what the signals meant. Add that to girls never saying what they mean, and the result was a disastrous dating life.

    Particularly in churches, where you can associate with people on a long term basis, its important to demonstrate a little empathy. A number of women that rejected me are now middleaged, childless and expect understanding for living out their choices in selfmade situation.....

    - an observer

  4. Sd,

    Teach your daughters to shun careerism.

    The church fails when it teaches its girls to embrace a career. Implicit lesson: do not trust a man, do not submit to his leadership, strive to 'be your best' ( often in that fabulous hr/media career).

    So many church girls embrace a career, delay serious relationships untl they've finished 'having fun', and become outright hedonists. Though always with forgiveness dispensed at the sunday morning nightclub.

    Church was not intended to be like this.

    The attitude: Girl i dated a couple of months once said she could never stick at a job she hated. Had to ask: what if you had no choice? What if your other half was out of work? Quick backpedal: thats different, of course.

    Of course.

    Same girl also said she hated the thought of being tied down with a bunch of kids (red flag!!). Careful what you wish for: shes now a childless, middleaged teacher, raising other peoples kids.

    Why do we vent on this stuff, years afterwards?

    The feminine imperative has programmed unnatural thinking. I am still angry about the lies, and still see them preached as gospel in the churches.

    Bitter irony: Only recognising the lies years later, people label ME 'quirky'....

    - an observer

  5. My young adult children tell me the most common method of ending or thwarting an unwanted relationship is to unfriend from fb, twitter etc, and block calls and texts.

    Avoid the awkward exit interview if possible.

  6. Sarah's Daughter, although they won't believe you, you would be doing your daughters an incredible favor by explaining that the nice guy in church who they publicly humiliate may get his act together, may have a string of triumphs in life, may in 10 years end up being the one who gets to do the choosing but who will never, ever consider them again. Not that anything like that has ever happened in my life.

    1. the nice guy in church who they publicly humiliate may get his act together

      And, don't forget, the guy you DO want, may observe how you treated that nice guy -- or hear about it later -- and may never try. You may be killing your own chances with the one you really want.

  7. Eastside School,

    That's me. While I have never been nuclear rejected, 10 years ago I was a spineless nice guy struggling with my identity as a man and my direction in life. I recognized I wasn't in much of a place for a relationship I really did not spend much time pursuing women in my late teens, early twenties. However, when I started to pursue women with long term interest in mind, I got no where due to my finicky nice guy supplicating behavior.

    Needless to say I am now in my late twenties and am a completely different person. As a result of my life experiences, my financial stability/career, and so on, I recognize that I am high value and have a lot to offer (debt free, will buy a home in cash at the end of the year, well traveled - 15 countries, masculine hobbies, meaningful friendships, etc). Prior to my red pill experience I struggled with self confidence and adequacy, mostly due to my lack of success with women. I'm finally beginning to realize that I am a high value man, and the woman gets to be with me is incredibly blessed.

  8. Eastside School,
    There is a boy on their swim team who isn't hitting on them or anything yet they'll talk about him (with each other) and how much he annoys them. This is been the only time to date that I've had to intervene and tell them to shut up about it and stop paying attention to him if he doesn't behave the way they think he should, ie. who are you that he must conform to your rules?

    The tricky part with that is, this boy's father is 10 fold annoying to the other parents. I found myself in conversation with him during their first practice and quickly had to put to use the advice I would later give the girls. I haven't put myself in a position for him to talk at me since (yes "at" this man does not "talk with", he talks "at" - no social etiquette or awareness).

    Anyway, it is very important to us that the girls compose themselves in a way that edifies our family and doesn't cause others problems.

    1. no social etiquette or awareness

      he might be one of these... and so might his son...

  9. Anywhere on the autistic spectrum seems to irritate women. The inability to read social cues means womens hints and gender correctness is lost in translation.

    Makes for some awkward, yet funny moments around too sensitive women.

    - an observer


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