What is vulgar?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vulgar?show=0&t=1358508883
a : generally used, applied, or accepted
b : understood in or having the ordinary sense <they reject the vulgar conception of miracle — W. R. Inge>
2
: vernacular <the vulgar name of a plant>
3
4
a : lacking in cultivation, perception, or taste : coarse
b : morally crude, undeveloped, or unregenerate : gross
c : ostentatious or excessive in expenditure or display : pretentious
5
a : offensive in language : earthy
b : lewdly or profanely indecent
I address this as it relates to Christians and Colossians 3:8. Are the seven words you can't say on public TV vulgar? What if those words were in another language? This seems to be a PC method that Christians have adopted as a way to have a rule about their language. It's easier for Christians to have rules than it is to have the circumcision of the heart. I've said,"Crap! I stepped in shit." Which word is vulgar? The feeling at the time was that "crap" was the more indecent and anger driven word. I grew up on a farm. Manure was never a word we used.
Is it vulgar to speak of sex slavery? We have met many girls trapped in it and find them to be decent people. Not perfect. Yet, they fornicate in order to pay off their families debts. Where is the vulgarity in such a situation. Our government prosecutes the man that buys these women out of such a situation because, "it contributes to sex trafficking." Isn't that ass-backwards? I find the judgement/PC Christian patrol to be the vulgar ones. They offend my sensibilities and are "of the usual, typical, or ordinary kind". They are lacking in "cultivation, perception, or taste". They are "ostentatious or excessive in expenditure or display". I might be "lewdly or profanely indecent ", but they seem to meet many more of the definitions of vulgar than I.
I address this as it relates to Christians and Colossians 3:8. Are the seven words you can't say on public TV vulgar? What if those words were in another language? This seems to be a PC method that Christians have adopted as a way to have a rule about their language. It's easier for Christians to have rules than it is to have the circumcision of the heart. I've said,"Crap! I stepped in shit." Which word is vulgar? The feeling at the time was that "crap" was the more indecent and anger driven word. I grew up on a farm. Manure was never a word we used.
Is it vulgar to speak of sex slavery? We have met many girls trapped in it and find them to be decent people. Not perfect. Yet, they fornicate in order to pay off their families debts. Where is the vulgarity in such a situation. Our government prosecutes the man that buys these women out of such a situation because, "it contributes to sex trafficking." Isn't that ass-backwards? I find the judgement/PC Christian patrol to be the vulgar ones. They offend my sensibilities and are "of the usual, typical, or ordinary kind". They are lacking in "cultivation, perception, or taste". They are "ostentatious or excessive in expenditure or display". I might be "lewdly or profanely indecent ", but they seem to meet many more of the definitions of vulgar than I.
I held similar opinions to what you express here for a long time. But as my study of scripture increased and my desire to walk as a disciple increased I have turned around a bit. Jesus tells us that it is what comes out of our mouth that makes us unclean and James instructs us on the power of our tongues in chapter 3 of his letter. Vulgarity, indeed, is a matter of perception - after all, what is intrinsically offensive about the utterance of a few syllables especially when they do not profane the sacred?
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, when we consider what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8 about not eating meat if it will cause a brother to stumble, doesn't it seem that this might be instructive?
When I think of the fact that the people I meet who are not in Him see me as a representative of Him, it seems that I should represent Him in a way that He would find pleasing. Ephesians 4 seems to fit here, especially verse 29 - is vulgar talk good for building up? Does it give grace to those who hear?
I have little time for the petty plebiscites of the "churchian" caste, but I still think these matters merit some thought.
Thank you for what you are doing with your little corner of the web. It's a pleasure to read.
I am careful about what certain people consider offensive. I've had to live in Muslim countries. As a result, I understand better than others the difference between making your brother stumble vs. what I hold true and Christian. Words don't matter compared to the desires of the heart. I will not teach certain churchian beliefs to my children. Included are the difference between syllables and your heart's defiance. English can only reach so much of the human heart. There is more to it than that.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I was taking your comments on vulgar speech to have a broader meaning than you intended. If this kind of talk still allows for the building up of those you are speaking to, then I suppose there is no issue with it. And as far as "not teaching my children certain churchian beliefs" goes, I agree wholeheartedly. My children will not be taught that women are sacred flowers and they will not be taught to judge those around them on superficial suppositions. There are others, of course, but we are in agreement on this regardless. However, there is something in your comment that I still think is worth thinking about.
ReplyDeleteYou say that words don't matter compared to desires of the heart. I would say that we are guilty of sin regardless of the relative repugnance of one sin compared to another. The existence of the greater sin does not make the lesser clean. And our Lord teaches us very clearly that words do matter.
Of course, what is in the heart is of absolute importance to God - he makes this very clear. And though the legalism of the "churchian" speaks nothing of what is in is heart, there is still a difference between being legalistic and having a heart to follow his commandments. He says, "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me."
Many of us have been put off by the attitude of many, where they judge others for not following their own rules and hold themselves up as pure for their compliance. These are like the Pharisees - placing more importance on their own rules than on the commandments of our Lord. But this doesn't mean that outward obedience is unimportant. Our Lord expects it and commands it.
So how do you reconcile the fact that English wasn't a language during the Bible context with this word issue? Vulgar words depend on the society and culture. Many forbidden words in Christianity weren't always so. Cultural mores change as time moves on. There was a time that slavery was considered moral in the dominant American Christian religions, particularly the South. That didn't make it more right then. Those that bought slaves and were decent slave owners would be considered decadent human beings today. Again, it's about the heart.
ReplyDeleteI tend to think that pointing to the fact that these words didn't exist in their current form at the time the commandment was written is something of a legalistic interpretation. We know what causes our brothers to stumble. God knows what these words mean to us and he knows if they build up and give grace to those who hear. It's the particular culture and mores of the time that define these things. Vulgarity isn't about what form our utterances take. I agree - it's about what is in our heart. But it's also about how what we say is taken by those who hear.
ReplyDeleteThat is my point. What do the words mean to you? Or to me? Or to the non-Christian? If I know you don't like certain words uttered around you, I wouldn't utter them when in your company. That doesn't change anything. I hold no value to the syllables. It is what is in your heart when uttering any word. I grew up on a farm and work in the military. I have watched as Christian missionaries are arrested for child sex slavery. Well at least they didn't swear in English.
ReplyDeleteOTOH, not swearing or drinking or smoking around certain types of people can cause them to stumble as well. So what, just forget about those filthy sinners (not that you can prove those things are sin) that wouldn't listen to someone who is the perfect Christian (as defined by a consortium churchianity)? That is insanity. I will not submit to those that don't have the fruit to justify listening to them.
I tend to think that the words mean what they mean. I don't find them particularly offensive. I know that some do. I don't use them for the reasons I described above. I don't wag my fingers at others who do. I just think it's worth thinking about (as opposed to some who think we should just accept it because that's what churchy people think).
ReplyDeleteI'm not really sure what the sex slavery thing has to do with it. Is this offensive? Absolutely. Is it repulsive? Certainly. Does it have anything to do with vulgar language? Not that I'm aware of.
Your question to me, regarding forgetting about those filthy sinners - by all means, no. I just don't think that we need to filthy ourselves with sin in order to reach out to them. In my own experience and in every instance I've seen, when Christians attempt to minister to sinners by partaking in their sins, they tend to dirty themselves more than they help others to be clean. Perhaps your experience is different. I do know, however, that it isn't necessary to partake in those sins to minister to those that do. I think, however, that we can both agree, that the "churchian" approach of judging them ourselves is not constructive. Ministering to them is loving them and showing them the Way the Truth and the Light - not judging them.
But why do you call it sin that you are partaking in? If you don't speak their language, how are you going to communicate with them?
ReplyDeleteThe reason I bring up the sex slavery is because of the same dichotomy. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my transition. Sometimes, I think faster than I type. What good Christians do when confronted with the reality of sex slavery is counter productive to what they would want to have happen.
The same is true if you are visibly shaken by a farmer or sailor speaking with words you find vulgar. It is part of their vocabulary and they use it the way you use different words. If they see you shaken by their language, you have lost all credibility with them. So you end up valuing something that doesn't matter, so much that you can't make a difference in their life. Or you might find out they can teach you about Christianity and you rejected them because they smoke, drink, and swear. None of which are sins by themselves.
It's hard to take off the feminist glasses. Churches will put a twice divorced pedophile in front of the congregation as long as he doesn't smoke, drink, or swear. It is my experience that if I can't see the vice of someone I meet, the vice is lurking and hidden. Those vices tend to be the sinful type. The truly ugly reside there.
"I feel crappy" is really just using a shorter form of the word, "crapulence."
ReplyDelete.
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I like to provide answers to questions no one asked.
I guess what it comes down to is what we think of Romans 12:2 and 1 Peter 1:13-16.
ReplyDeleteRecoiling in a pantomime of disgust doesn't serve the Lord, nor does it serve those to whom we would minister. But "fitting in" with them isn't what we're called to either.
It seems to me that what you suggest is that if we don't "fit in" there is no way we can reach those who are lost. If this were true it would certainly present a conundrum. If this is not what you are suggesting, then I have simply misunderstood what you are saying.
RLB
ReplyDelete"So you end up valuing something that doesn't matter, so much that you can't make a difference in their life"
That is a great succinct explanation of what is wrong with religion. I was reading in Luke 13 this morning about the bent over woman the Jesus healed on the sabbath. The religious were upset about Him breaking their rules(things they value) and not happy for the woman and her healing(making a difference in her life).
I like it!
jf
Is "RedLegBen" a postmodern? His interpretation of Colossians 3:8 is very slippery. Swearing is not a sin?
ReplyDelete*Claps hands while laughing*
DeleteWay to read through the thread and completely miss the point, Anon.
I apologise for having missed the point.
DeleteAre you saying that it not sinful to swear? I've gone around in circles a bit, trying to figure out where you stand on this: it sounds like you are saying that profanity is either essentially trivial or is wholly context-dependent. As I say, I find it all rather post-modern and slippery -- I can't grasp it.
Please could you explain exactly what your position is? ...Plainly enough so that a child can understand? (I'm afraid I need child-like explanations -- it's why I love The Bible!)
Again, forgive me for being dense. ...I don't mean to be. :(
The reason we are discussing this is to point out that hard fast rules do not make for a pure heart.
ReplyDelete"But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth." - Colossians 3:8
Our colloquial expressions that may have at one point been used as anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy and filthy, are not today. That is why RLB titled it "Crap! I stepped in Shit!" The expression of anger is in the word "crap" not in the word "shit" - especially to a farmer. It is not called manure or poop on the farm, it is shit, cow shit. In using the word shit in this context, there is no sin or rebellion to what is stated in this Bible verse.
The same is true with many words. It is the HEART that matters.
We know too many Christians who are living by the law without love in their heart. Wives submitting to their husbands while rolling their eyes and carrying contention in their hearts.
We know women who were sold into sex slavery who are noble and righteous women, even while they dress as whores and give their services to men.
RLB knew a missionary who was all Christian in speech who was selling children into slavery - and was arrested for it.
I know women who boldly profess their desire to go help the unfortunate in Africa on a missionary trip. What oozes from their heart is their enjoyment of being able to TELL people of their desire to go on their missionary trip. Matthew 6:3 "But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing" goes right out the window. Even more disgusting is they collect money from others so they may relish in their good deeds.
Also witnessed by RLB is these missionaries drinking and partying it up in bars, hooking up with available men and indulging in the touristy things these countries have to offer (safaris, white water rafting etc.) while their church is footing the bill for their "calling from God."
It is disgusting and vulgar.
We spend a lot of time around men the law abiding Christian would find vulgar - the military. It is just their manner of speech. We taught our children this right away.
Also, telling our children they are not allowed to say certain words only makes them use other words in place of the bad ones. The heart has not changed. Instead we discuss calm, gentle natures and self control when outside circumstances tempt them to rage.
When you injure yourself, you have pain. Do you really think it matters what word comes out of your mouth? I don't care what select words you've chosen are filthy, there will be something that comes out in response to the pain. Is this sin? I hardly think so - no matter what the word is unless it is using God's name in vein.
What is filthy is a Christian presuming he is more Holy, more righteous, or less sinful than another. Those who make comparisons. Those who covet or are jealous of another's life because they don't believe that person's sin should be redeemed. That is filthy. That mocks the Cross.
More than anything, what we are saying is don't pretend your doing something in line with scripture when you are cautious with your every word but do nothing to change your heart. Get the big stuff out of the way first.
@SD
DeleteThe reason we are discussing this is to point out that hard fast rules do not make for a pure heart.
I agree. Christianity is not about blindly following rules: it is about a believer surrendering to God's will and asking God to align their heart with His. ...So that they come to love what He loves and to hate what He hates.
"But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth." - Colossians 3:8
The expression "filthy language" is a good translation here. the Greek αἰσχρολογία (aischrologia), and does simply refer to what we would call "swear words" -- words which are regarded as obscene or low (in whatever language one is speaking) -- irrespective of the context in which they were uttered. Swear-words are just not things which Christians should say. (Despite what Brian McClaren might tell you!)
Our colloquial expressions that may have at one point been used as anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy and filthy, are not today. That is why RLB titled it "Crap! I stepped in Shit!" The expression of anger is in the word "crap" not in the word "shit" - especially to a farmer. It is not called manure or poop on the farm, it is shit, cow shit. In using the word shit in this context, there is no sin or rebellion to what is stated in this Bible verse.
This might be true of an unbeliever, but as far as believers are concerned, it is contrary to Colossians 3:8 (see my previous paragraph). An unsaved person can use these things without meaning anything by them, but when they are saved, the Holy Spirit convicts them and works in them to purify them.
It's not about an outward rule-following-thing: it's just about being transformed by God's Spirit into the image of Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:18). We don't get the credit, and we certainly can't boast about how holy we are! But He will change us if we allow Him...
We know women who were sold into sex slavery who are noble and righteous women, even while they dress as whores and give their services to men.
I understand where you're coming from, but a practising prostitute cannot be righteous -- no unsaved person can, since none of us can be righteous in our own efforts. Our righteousness is not our own (in fact we're all evil); God alone is truly righteous. Righteousness belongs to Christ and He gives it to us when we repent and turn from our sin and give our lives to Him. Prostitutes cannot come to faith without repentance -- which of course means turning their backs on their trade. ...And praise God, many of them do!
I know women who boldly profess their desire to go help the unfortunate in Africa on a missionary trip. What oozes from their heart is their enjoyment of being able to TELL people of their desire to go on their missionary trip. Matthew 6:3 "But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing" goes right out the window. Even more disgusting is they collect money from others so they may relish in their good deeds.
That verse, Matthew 6:3, seems to be lost on most people nowadays. The secular world has elevated poverty tourism: it's a rite of passage for teenage heathen nowadays to do this sort of thing at insane expense, for the "experience". I lament as you do that the church follows suit.
DeleteAlso witnessed by RLB is these missionaries drinking and partying it up in bars, hooking up with available men and indulging in the touristy things these countries have to offer (safaris, white water rafting etc.) while their church is footing the bill for their "calling from God."
He keeps seeing missionaries getting drunk and hooking up with men in bars?! Really?! Surely they're not saved. Where are they from?
And I always wonder at what the money that is spent on these overseas trips could do if simply wired over to the native pastors or missionaries. There is a place for cross-cultural mission. ...But today so much missionary activity is more about "an experience" than anything. It is very sad.
It is disgusting and vulgar.
Try saying that in a church: I can hear the cries of "do not judge"...
We spend a lot of time around men the law abiding Christian would find vulgar - the military. It is just their manner of speech. We taught our children this right away.
Yes, I don't think it is the Christian's job to police the speech of the heathen: whilst we may not like to hear their profanity, it's exactly what you'd expect from people who don't yet know The Lord. Rather than trying to make them follow some speech code outwardly, it's better to concentrate on witnessing to them, in the hope of getting them saved. The Holy Spirit will then work on them inwardly, and will change their heart, so that what comes out of their mouths will no longer be profane.
...And this is one of the most noticeable changes when someone is truly saved. Their speech is different. It's not some great effort -- it just happens when they yield to God. An example...
Not far from where I live, there was a revival about a hundred years ago. The men who were saved were all hard, rough-around-the-edges coal miners. After they'd been saved, the mines stopped working: the pit-ponies wouldn't budge. Why? Because all their lives, the miners had only ever addressed the poor beasts with swearing and cursing -- and now these Spirit-filled former hard men simply couldn't bring themselves to utter such words any more! That is the sort of transformation we must seek -- God's transformation. Not some outward conformity to a set of speech codes.
More than anything, what we are saying is don't pretend your doing something in line with scripture when you are cautious with your every word but do nothing to change your heart. Get the big stuff out of the way first.
I agree, but with one correction --- you can't change your heart. Only God can! And that can only come when you make Christ Lord over it.
Surely they're not saved
ReplyDeleteClearly you have not read my post Amazing Grace.
Try saying that in a church: I can hear the cries of "do not judge".
And yet you judge whether or not someone has received Salvation based on their continual sin.
Sounds like those who did not approve of Jesus' works on the Sabbath.
Yes, I don't think it is the Christian's job to police the speech of the heathen
Nowhere did I say these Soldiers are heathens, quite the contrary. Read my post about Justin the Marine. I expect to hear the words you call profanity because I know the culture they are in. This in no way makes me question their love for God or their Salvation.
The Holy Spirit will work on a Saved Christian heart WHEN that Christian SEEKS. You do not know what the Holy Spirit has divined in another's heart.
it just happens when they yield to God
Right, however this has nothing to do with whether or not a person has accepted Christ as their Savior.
the mines stopped working:
Who did this benefit?
God can change my heart and he can keep it hardened where it might need to be according to His will. The Christian girls I met who are prostitutes in South Korea survive and keep from going to prison by continuing their services to men. Very much children of God. Very much Saved Christians. And very much doing what many Christians would judge as sinful.
..And this is one of the most noticeable changes when someone is truly saved
I'm afraid you are precisely who this post was written about and the very person I do not entertain in association. Truly saved? Based on noticeable changes?
MY GREATEST WORKS ARE FILTHY RAGS
God is no more impressed with me now clicking away on a keyboard, than he was when I was slutting around with guys, writing poetry and crying out to Him in prayer. In fact there are times I need to remind myself of the faith that lost little girl had in God that life will work out for her.
ReplyDeleteClearly you have not read my post Amazing Grace.
No I haven't. ...But it's sensible to questions someone's salvation if they claim Christ and are happily getting smashed and "hooking up" with guys in bars. That is making a mockery of Him. Not everyone who calls themselves Christian is saved, and we're called by Christ Himself to check on others' fruit. And He tells us that there are those who think they're working for Him, but who in truth never knew Him.
It's totally Biblical to question whether someone is saved. Unfortunately there are many in churches who are not saved -- both those who are "respectable" and those who are carnal. It's a result of the methods of evangelism: faith without repentance, easy believism, cheap grace, etc..
And we're called to examine ourselves to see whether we're truly in the faith as well.
Try saying that in a church: I can hear the cries of "do not judge".
And yet you judge whether or not someone has received Salvation based on their continual sin.
Christians all sin. But if someone who calls themselves a "missionary" is happily getting drunk and fornicating with guys in bars -- whilst being funded by their church -- then one has to question whether or not they are actually in the faith. The epistles of John explain this: we all sin, but true believers do not happily continue in serious sin (read 1 John 3:9).
And you compare me to a Pharisee, simply for asking a question. Do you think you're being Christian, here, or just retaliating because I've touched a nerve with you? I see that you came out swinging on your other thread about swearing, trying to caricature anyone who disagrees with you as a whited sepulchre. That's pretty unworthy. Perhaps you might want to examine your own heart before posting again on this.
The Holy Spirit will work on a Saved Christian heart WHEN that Christian SEEKS. You do not know what the Holy Spirit has divined in another's heart.
No, but I'm told in Scripture what the outcome is -- what the fruits of the Spirit are. And Colossians 3:8 stands, regardless of what you may wish it to say.
it just happens when they yield to God
Right, however this has nothing to do with whether or not a person has accepted Christ as their Savior.
Straw man, much? At what point did I say that? You are behaving like the hysterical woman you scoff at in your other post.
One gets the impression that you are simply too attached to your and your husband's swearing to take Scripture seriously on this and submit to it. I can't help you with that, but I would urge you to take this seriously, rather than simply going on the attack.
the mines stopped working:
Who did this benefit?
What's the point of this question. The stoppage was only temporary, of course. Can't you find anything positive in that story, or are you just ticked to read that God cleaned some people up, while you still swear?
Christians all sin. But...
ReplyDeleteSay no more. I understand who you are, you're welcome to move on from my blog, Anonymous.
One last point. Ballista over at The Society of Phineas has written a good series on what the Gospel actually is and is not, and about what Salvation entails. I recommend you go and check it out. He explains what "accepting Christ" has come to mean in our modern age:
ReplyDeleteaccepting Christ has turned from a hard road of discipleship and self-denial into a “perfect romance”, where Christ is the lover who accepts you just as you are.
And he adds...
Ultimately in terms of the Biblical faith, believing in the wrong thing is just the same as not believing at all.
His writings are solidly Scriptural unlike most of the "Christian manosphere". I think you may find them helpful.
ReplyDeleteChristians all sin. But...
Say no more. I understand who you are, you're welcome to move on from my blog, Anonymous.
As you wish...
But before I go, I urge you to listen to what I've said and consider it carefully. Your position simply does not stand up in the light of Scripture. I said to read 1 John 3:9. Please do and let it sink in. It is important stuff.
So long. I'll pray for you and for your husband.
This Anon goes by the moniker WWW on other blogs and is banned from commenting here due to his disingenuous and hardly Christian screed about me that he had in a gossip fest with a couple other hand waving ninnies:
DeleteRegarding “Sarah’s Daughter”, she is (by her own free admission) a rather well-used ex-slut. She says she’s saved, but I doubt it. She’s hoodwinked some poor army-guy (“Red Leg Ben”) into marrying her and helping her try to bury her past, but she has never truly repented and so she’s still screwed up about it — hence her hatred of @donalgraeme for requiring his wife to be a virgin (a problem she has with God).
I remember reading her saying that she refuses to attend a church for the reason that the churches are all too churchian, but it struck me as being likelier that she was just ensuring that she avoids proper accountability. In fact, she insists that one can be a “saved Christian” and continue happily to make a living as a prostitute (as one can see in the exchange here). She has no idea about what it means to follow Christ. And none of the other red-pill women really call her on it: they just have the odd spat, like chicks do. …But then most “red pill” Christian women would appear to be as conscience-free about their whoredoms as the rest of modern women. (I bemoaned this over at Dalrock’s.)
Idiot. It fascinates me how much these pukes twist words and convince their tiny little brains that they know something about someone. And what was that the Bible has to say about gossip?
I spent a lot of time in prayer and reading the Bible over the last few days. Particularly Paul. I stand by my original post. The syllables are neither clean nor unclean. It is about a circumcision of the heart. I will pray for you as well. Perhaps you are a different bit of clay than I.
ReplyDelete