Monday, January 7, 2013

Christian Game

RLB post here.

I came late to the game of "game". I have been told I was the ultimate alpha in the way I acquired SD. I thought of it as wooing at the time (circa 1990's). The truth is I had been burned by playing the socially acceptable nice guy. I left college to become a bartender much to my parent's chagrin. I was young, dumb, and full of ... I'll stay as PG-13 as possible here. 

My transition started with my best friend that I met bar tending. I discovered in the first night of working with him that he was gay. I was brought up the PC way and had no judgement about him, but I let him know I was straight. He was cool with that and we proceeded to break up as many attractive couples as we could. He explained how women never mean what they say and they never act as they declare. He was right. I would go with him to the gay bars. Why, you might ask, because lesbians have sex with more men than straight women. He also explained that to me. The more I spent time with him, the better I understood women. I'm not sure why gay men have this ability to see through women's deceptions, but they do. Perhaps, it's because they don't care anymore. I wasn't trying to sleep with as many women as possible. My goal was to get married. I had two women turn me down already before I left college. The next time was going to be a sure thing.

I had been majoring in physics in college. I think the experimental method is what drove me to do the things that SD says made her crazy over me. All the things that I did to her are quite game-related suggestions. However, I didn't know what game was. I considered myself a Christian at the time. I never lied to any of the women. Yes, I fornicated and in some cases was an accomplice to adultery. However, I believed God wanted me to get married. Oh sure, there is plenty of room to judge my decisions. I had my own set of morality. I gave each relationship two weeks. No more, sometimes less. None of them met my standards for marriage. I might still fornicate with them occasionally, but I let them know nothing was going to happen with us long term. If you want details on how much I frustrated SD, peruse the older posts. I don't doubt that a man can stay celibate leading up to marriage. I don't know how to do it. I do know a celibate woman can successfully find a marriageable man. I would have dropped my jaw if a woman turned me down during those raging years of my youth. The fact that SD held me off for a time was impressive enough. That says much about the state of sexual affairs in the world I grew up in. I'm not convinced it has changed much.

Today, the manosphere talks about the red pill. I know I didn't take the red pill because I allowed the beta characteristics to seep back in when we got married. As SD has posted, I didn't truly take that pill until 15 years into our marriage. It is possible to use and understand game tactics while being a Christian. Not only is it possible, it is necessary to have a successful marriage.


  1. What newer converts need to keep in mind is that "alpha" is not synonymous with "player". An alpha is a man who takes the lead in a relationship AND makes a woman feel safe. Beta's and lower only focus on the latter.

    When's the last time you made a girl's knees weak by telling her "I don't know what we should do tonight, why don't you decide"? Exactly.

  2. "because lesbians have sex with more men than straight women."

    Could you expand on that? That's one of those sentences that contains an entire book.

  3. M. - outside of what RLB and I have witnessed regarding the behavior of lesbian women, there is this: Twenty five per cent reported no previous sexual contact with men ever. However, exclusive WSW (woman who have sex with women) were still significantly more likely than controls to report more than 50 lifetime male sexual partners (4% versus 2%, OR 2.8, p=0.003).

  4. This is interesting: "After multivariate analysis, the most strongly associated WSW features were bacterial vaginosis, self injecting drug use, a sexual partner who injects drugs, a homo/bisexual male sexual partner, no male sexual partners in the past year and, more than 50 lifetime male sexual partners."

    No male sexual partners in the past year and yet more than 50 over a lifetime? Not saying it isn't true, but this has interesting written all over it.

    Also, from earlier in the paper, "Behavioural research also demonstrates that a woman's sexual identity is not an accurate predictor of behaviour, with a large proportion of “lesbian” women reporting sex with (often high risk) men.24,25 Only 7% of our WSW sample had never had sexual contact with a male."

    Interesting stuff.

  5. Did I mention it was interesting? Lol, sorry, I just realized how many times I used that word.

  6. Try this interpretation.

    Woman starts having sex with guys. She's not thrilled, something isn't right. Figures it's the guy. Tries more guys, still not happy. Tries even harder. Finally ends up in bed with a woman. "Oh, yummy!" She has a big lifetime count even if she never does another guy.

    What the 50+ statistic makes me wonder is how many guys the women went with after they switched teams.

    That, and why wasn't I one of those fifty :)

  7. I think this proves that you can't have game and be a Christian. "I don't doubt that a man can stay celibate leading up to marriage. I don't know how to do it." It seems that church girls will chase after the least Christian guy there is. All that matters is that he call himself a Christian, that way she can claim that she only wants a Christian guy.

    I believe that if a Christian girl loved her brothers in Christ, she would condemn any man who had slept with another mans future wife. Thanks SD for rewarding this man. It's nice to know that he gets what he wants after having used the woman who could have been my future wife.

    And from the sound of the article, it doesn't sound like there is any remorse for his contribution to the damage done and pain caused.

  8. Anon,
    What a shameful person I'd be had I judged his sin. I certainly was not without my own.

    Would you like to explain the levels of Christian one can be? I'm really confused about that one. I think Jesus might be as well. Do enlighten us.

  9. So, one guy's story from 20 years ago proves that Christians can't have game. Wow. Just wow. Obviously not much of a STEM person. There's this thing called a preponderance of evidence. I know that might get in the way of judging other people, but please continue on with explaining these levels of Christianity. I haven't read those in the Bible. Please reference it for me.

  10. It's called sanctification. The process of becoming more like Christ. I'm sure Jesus has heard of it.
    I don't doubt that a Christian can have game. I only doubt that your post is an example of it.
    The mark of a Christian is love. When we miss the mark, we should experience remorse and repentance. We should try to warn others not to walk in our footsteps. We should not encourage others to sin.
    Our faith is shown by our works.
    If having a wife is more important to you than loving a brother, then you have your reward.
    Women have moral agency. Women have the choice to choose good or evil.
    There was once a woman who was attracted to evil. She turned into a pillar of salt. Her husband choose God rather than her.

  11. First you said this is proof that game and Christianity can't mix. Now, you want to back off of that and attack me for implementing game, which didn't exist 20 years ago, as a Christian that doesn't meet your standards. I have no doubt I would have gone to heaven even then. Unless you can point out how Christianity has more to salvation than confession and submission, you strike me as someone who lets their mouth run before thinking.

    As a young man, I committed sins. Today, I commit sins. I see no ranking of sin in the Bible. I am much happier with my life and decisions today than 20 years ago. By explaining my decisions and the resultant consequences, I am warning others about bad decisions. Choosing to be the typical beta in relationships in as sinful as being a PUA. By being that feminized man, you reject God's command to lead your family, even your future family. Don't reject the leadership that has been ordered by God for you to hold.

    My post is an example of my past. Nothing more, nothing less. There was no encouragement about anything. Certain things I did to attract a wife worked. That is the truth. How that fits into men applying game to attracting a wife and remaining true to being Christian is the purpose of these types of discussions.

    I'm thankful for your response because my 16 year old son and I have had a much more in depth discussion about these issues as a result. He feels that he is acquiring the ability to do that thing I didn't know how to do. Hopefully, he will stand on my shoulders. Not telling him about my experience in life would not have led to the conversation we had tonight.

  12. I think the fact of the matter as it stands today that Christianity is irrelevant in the context of attracting a wife for a young man.

    What attracts a woman is masculinity, and unfortunately the church as a whole is not helping young men develop their masculinity (who are not masculine due to a variety of factors -i.e single moms, passive fathers, unhealthy home life, etc).

    At the end of the day if your goal is to be successful with women, you have to discard Christianity as an attraction trigger, because it is not. You need to be masculine, confident, dominant. How does one develop these traits? Well that's a difficult question, but one of the most obvious paths is to behave in a manner similarly to the post above.

    And therein lies my biggest beef/issue with Christianity and the church. Of the men I know who are now successfully married and devoted believers,almost all of them were at one point in their life the alpha aloof asshole. They are not, nor were they ever socially acceptable nice guys (at least not when they had success with women/their wives). And so the whole discussion is quite frustrating, because regardless of whether or not you sinned or whether or not that made you more or less of a sincere question, you succeeded in attracting your wife because you "sinned". Or, if one did not have to flirt, kiss other women in front of, and insult the woman they were courting, the sinful life style they were leading up until that point gave them the tools/confidence/masculinity they needed to attract a woman and keep her. All of these men are not aware that this attracted their wives to them, instead they give credit to God's sovereignty, and imply that young men simply need to be sincere Christian's to find a Christian wife. Of course, it's bullshit.

    In sum, following Christianity/Church teaching on this matter is a losing strategy for young men who have no confidence with women, or a strong sense of masculinity.

    Unfortunately, men in the church who are masculine and have success with women are unknowingly guilty of a "Do as the scripture/church/I say, not as I did" mentality/thought process/teaching.

    I'm not writing to judge you, I commend you for the awareness and for admitting you don't have it all figured out. I'm just saying it's extremely frustrating for young men who have attempted to live lives as sincere followers of Christ, only to realize that the church and the men they respect/follow have lead them astray. And as I sit here try to figure out where to go from here, the only conclusion is the church has nothing of value add regarding this matter.

    P.S. I'm the same guy who left this comment-

  13. In Sum I think this proves that you cannot be masculine/dominant/confident by simply being a Christian. And that in fact being a Christian is more likely to make you a socially acceptable nice guy who will never have any success with women period.

  14. Anon, I really like your comments and appreciate your honesty. Please consider a moniker so we may know when it is you. Even Anon1, I don't care - just so we can recognize you.

    There is a lot to be discussed in what you have written. This is exactly what RLB is talking about on today's post; "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

    In future posts I will be discussing who I was when I met RLB, so far you've only heard one half of the story. Needless to say, you are right, it was not his faith that attracted him to me. It was important to me that he was a believer and not an atheist or some new age spiritualistic type, either of those would have turned me off right away. I had one of each ask me out years before I met RLB and quite honestly it weirded me out, even at the young age I was, I knew this was a teen wrapped up in something evil. It was important to me that a man be man enough to love God*. Even though we were both wretched sinners, my foundation was Christianity.

    *Man enough to love God in no way means effeminate or emotional about his love for God. It means when asked, "what religion are you?" he doesn't waiver. RLB didn't waiver, he said "Lutheran." I thought, "perfect, I was brought up Lutheran." And that's all I needed to know. I knew he believed Jesus Christ was his Savior and that the Bible is the Word of God.

    Now, I'm sure Anon from above would judge our level of Christianity or sanctification, or whatever word it is that ranks him as superior to us. But that doesn't bother me, I know that whole prodigal son story is in the Bible for a reason (perhaps just to piss off the "more Christ like" individuals who covet the forgiveness and grace that is doled out in heaps to repentant sinners).

  15. Thanks for the kind words Sarah. Ill sign every post off as jzb. I comment via mobile and it's a bit finicky.

    There are several issues with the judgement from anon above. The first is the metric by which the church measures "godly/successful" Christians. In sum if you say the right things, serve at church, and appear to be a committed evangelical Christian, you're good to go. Of course this involves a list of do nots such as:
    Disagreeing with the church
    Questioning or being critical of the church

    However, other sins get a free pass as long as they are not visible and messy.

    So that is part of the issue.

  16. However I think the other problem is that Christians and the church simply advertise submission to Christ and the "Gidly lifestyle" as the most fulfilling and effective way to live. Also, we as Christians tend to not think critically, as there's a certain level of faith involved. We also believe in absolute truth, and unfortunately we allow the church to claim primacy in areas they do not know much about and are not qualified to make such claims in.

    I think for me there's certainly a temptation to judge you and your husband for where you were at in your faith. But beyond that I think there's a greater frustration involved. And it's that everything I was told not to do or be about seems to have lead to your husbands success with you (and several other men who are now sincere Christians). So I sit over here and feel like an idiot for all of the time I spent serving in the church. For all of the time I spent earnestly praying that God would help me grow and make me a better man. For all the times I've cried out to The Lord asking he'd bring a woman into my life. For all of the times I've agonized over the reality that's longed more for intimacy with a woman over intimacy with The Lord. For thinking that the church was right, that women really want w nice guy who serves to care for them. For thinking that all of the effort I spent praying,serving,leading,sacrificing was making me a man. For making a huge effort to screen women who were not sincere Christians, to avoid casual relationships and women who I knew no potential for marriage existed. To forsake cuddle buddies, make out partners and friends with benefits for the long term satisfaction of a loving wife. And then of course pursuing the women who meet the criteria only to find they're not interested in you. But are they ever interested in the reformed bad boys or the edgy church guys that are cocky, self absorbed, and not serving all that much. Yeah it was a great feeling when one of the woman I pursued at church who told me she wasn't "ready for a relationship" ended up dating a recently reformed bad boy, who is currently in rehab..

    You know what that stuff does to you? It makes you ask "why be responsible? Why be kind? Why treat women with respect? Why should I accumulate savings? Why build a career? Why should I deny myself? Why should i continue to fight to be a virgin at 28 years old?$Why do all these things that supposedly matter when they clearly don't matter? Why do all these things to try and lock down a wife, when she probably gave up her virginity to some aloof asshole when she was 18?

    I can't describe to you how much it pains me to learn that I've wasted ten years of my life. To spend ten years being so confident that you're on the right road only to realize you've been doing it wrong the entire time. Ten years of wondering if you'll ever experience intimacy, if you'll ever be good enough, if you'll ever be desired by someone (much like what m3 wrote).

    So at any rate after spending so long immersed in Christianity, and after fighting so hard, I just am at a place where I'm over it and done with it. I so no need or use for Jesus and the church. And the difficult thing is that posts like these simply confirm to me that I bought into nonsense. Nod I kept down that path I'd be forever trapped in a misery of my own making.

    Jzb - had to split into two comments to post.

  17. Why fight not to sin, when those who willingly sin benefit directly from their sin...

  18. Have you read my post "Train wreck in 4...3...2...1" ?

    Look at that finances RLB and I had.

    Hold tight, I'll be writing posts about the "shit storm" - you'll know what I mean by that later. You are seeing what seems like a benefit from sin. What we lived was the repercussions from it. What we may still be living are the repercussions from it. Don't covet what we have, for if you get it, you'll also have to experience the pain. I've been hesitant to write about the pain...

    I will though.


  19. Perhaps my frustration is a bit extreme. It's certainly has not been an entire waste. Yet there's ten years or behavior/programming that I need to unlearn and it feels rather hopeless at times. My feelings are all over the place as I wrestle with the destruction of the paradigm I've lived full force for the past ten years.

    With that said, your post illustrates the point wonderfully. While your husband fought to provide and eventually succeeded, his ability to provide/responsibility/dependability didn't really matter initially. I.E dating/marriage 2.0 - the rules have changed. Provider status mattered much more 50 years ago than today. But again the church is still blue pill and unaware.

    Do you know what I earned in 2012 gross? Six figures, I'm debt free, own a used luxury sports sedan outright, and I'm going to buy a loft with cash after I return from South America from a long term assignment for work. In sum I have everything a woman should want, but we already know the story.

    It doesn't matter to most women, unless I find the diamond in the rough. Which all other men are looking for. So when push comes to shove, is she going to think rationally about provision, or is she going to follow her heart and attraction triggers. Even the "Christian" women are guilty of this.

    But all of this exaggerates another point I'm making, I have hope for my future, but not because of Jesus or the church. I have hope because I know the truth now about relationships, and I know I need to overcome the nice guy programming. I have the money, I am handsome (not jacked, but I will be in 6 months - IF + compound lifts FTW). I've traveled the world (15 countries), I love to shoot and am quite proficient (pistol, competition, several self defense courses). But the truth is the alpha aloof frame means more than any of those things, and until I have it none of them matter.

  20. In essence, Beta.

  21. You're right things have changed drastically as far as who women married. However, I don't think the attraction triggers have changed. It's just that families had more influence over who their daughters married. Our daughters will be marrying men that have provision abilities.

    The problem of the churches is two-fold. They aren't confronting women about their sins, therefore leading to bad decision making about who to marry and when to divorce. They also aren't helping men attract women in the current environment. I don't know how to do this in a Christian manner. I know ignoring the reality of how men attract wives won't solve the dilemma. Honesty about the situation and identifying the problem is the beginning of solving this.

    I didn't place finding a wife above God. I did place it above making money. I never had a church experience that made me think I should listen to them about how to live life. When I was young, our pastor's daughter got pregnant during high school. All the televangelists were being thrown in jail back then too. That didn't make me lose faith in God. I still knew the Bible contained truths for my life.

  22. I have a friend who, at a very young age (15) decided she was going to marry a businessman. She was raised by her single Dad. He remains one of my favorite people. Of all my friends with single parents, it was most difficult to get away with things with him. I keep in touch with him to this day. Anyway, she did find her businessman. He was chubby and a bit dorky. When he loses weight he is much more attractive but has only accomplished this a couple years of their now 14 year marriage. She is a bombshell. Gorgeous long brown hair, hourglass figure, just beautiful. She was never interested in the bad boys. She knew from such an early age that provider was what she was looking for. Certainly an outlier. He's always made bank and she's been delightfully taken care of. She is also a very sexual creature, he's definitely benefited from his investment. They have three beautiful children and are wildly successful as a married couple. I know this isn't the norm, but it does exist. I've watched it first hand.

    I think her husband learned a lot from his father-in-law. I know I can't get enough of him (the father-in-law). I am always intrigued by his MGTOW attitude. He is a contractor that has traveled the world over. He keeps a girlfriend back at home but never married after his first wife left him with their two daughters.

    RLB is kind about the churches, even in his disgust. There will be NO change in Churchianity until women are rebuked...harshly. We (collectively) are so out of line with scripture, it's as if we were born with Satan's/Eve's apple in our mouths. I read all over the place, women instructing The entitlement...the belittling of men, the shaming language...the holier than thou attitude when their alignment is so out of whack...Satan cheers. Look what Anon above said: "women have moral agency" - No, no they do not. Not even close. This supplication is NOT what Jesus had in mind. It is such a huge lie.

    The lie is from Satan. You know this.

    Your anger is justified...kind of. This may be your cross to bear. I wouldn't want it, but I doubt you'd want mine, or RLB's. What you are failing to recognize is that even within marriage, there can be complete isolation and loneliness. RLB's been there. I hate that. But it's the truth. If you've cried out to the Lord to give you a partner, you can imagine how painful it would be to have a partner, one who vowed to be with you till death, only to realize that was conditional and fragile. When you needed her most she was lost in her own selfishness. To be married 14 years and still cry out to the Lord out of loneliness and desperation. How could that be?

    It was.

    It is healed now.

  23. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  24. I did not mean to delete the above comment by jzb, my apologies. Here it is:

    In response to RLB:

    That's part of the disconnect for me, in essence I am having a hard time separating the "truth" of the church from the that of the Lord. And it's difficult because biblical interpretation is not straight forward nor easy. In essence it's a scholarly affair, to handle scriptures properly, to get the proper meaning of the texts, etc. We have theologies upon theologies, denominations upon denominations, pastors, theologians, laymen who are studied and who all hold different interpretations, many of which are conflicting. And each one of them is confident in the "truth" they believe they have interpreted properly. We are all guilty of this to some extent.

    In sum as a lay person it seems quite impossible to handle the scriptures properly without understanding the era in which the scriptures were written, the original languages, the cultures/customs, etc. Of course I could simply interpret the scriptures as I'd like to, but you all see the folly in that quite clearly.

    With so many conflicting versions of truth, to whom shall we listen? And when attempting to live by any version of said "truth" has serious physical, psychological, and emotional consequences I believe the question is only more urgent/important.

    In response to SD:

    I'm aware that I could enter into a marriage and be alone. Though again I am only aware due to the red pill, and recognizing how a failure to screen properly and or a failure to be masculine can lead to such a predicament. It's my goal to have a healthy and successful relationship, and to ensure that I do my part. However, as I've said before, if i succeed in doing so, it won't be because of Christianity or Jesus, it will be because I made the efforts to be masculine and make a healthy marriage a priority.

    And therein lies a big issue, if my success or lack thereof in any area of life is solely dependent on my effort, than what do I need Jesus/Christianity for? If a fulfilling life solely depends on the man that I become, on my ability to provide, on my ability to "game" my wife and so on, than what good is asking God? And so these are the questions I'm wrestling with. Unfortunately I lived in one extreme, and now the initial response has swung my heart/mind to the other. I can't say I've made any conclusions, but at the same time I just don't know how to get back to the middle. I'm sick to the stomach at the thought of returning to any semblance of that old way of living. I just don't see why Christianity matters, or Jesus matters pragmatically for my life at this point.

  25. Jumping from one side of the horse to the other is common for Christians. I think it's because no one can believe how simple Christianity is. It's a confession...that's it. Nothing more or less. The changes that happen to the individual are dependent on him. I'm a strong advocate of prayer. I believe strongly in the Holy Spirit. I'm a smart guy and I don't know how to make good decisions in my life without prayer. I've made two diametrically opposed decisions and I know they were both right. Job is my go-to reading when I'm frustrated. You'll notice he didn't stop believing. He just was frustrated. If you had to be a scholar to be a Christian, it wouldn't work. Yet we know it works simply due to the fact that it is one of the largest faiths in the world.


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